1 1 COUNTY OF HUDSON PLANNING BOARD 2 _________________________ 3 : TRANSCRIPT MEETING OF THE COUNTY OF : OF 4 HUDSON PLANNING BOARD : PROCEEDINGS _________________________ 5 6 6:30 p.m. Wednesday, March 19, 2008 7 567 Pavonia Avenue Jersey City, New Jersey 8 B E F O R E: 9 JUDE FITZGIBBONS, Chairperson 10 MARY E. AVAGLIANO, Commissioner RENEE BETTINGER, Commissioner 11 DANIEL CHOFFO, Commissioner DOREEN DiDOMENICO, Commissioner 12 MICHAEL HOLLOWAY, Commissioner KENNEDY NG, Commissioner 13 A L S O P R E S E N T: 14 THOMAS P. CALVANICO, ESQ. 15 Board Attorney 16 STEPHEN MARKS, PP, AICP Planning Director 17 MARIO TRIDENTE, 18 Development and Zoning Compliance Official 19 20 PROUT & CAMMAROTA, L.L.C. 21 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS 147 COLUMBIA TURNPIKE 22 FLORHAM PARK, NJ 07932 TEL: (973) 660-0600 FAX: (973) 660-1966 23 24 25 2 1 (Time noted 6:35.) 2 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Good 3 evening. I would like to call to order the 4 regular meeting of the Hudson County Planning 5 Board for March 19, 2008. 6 Counselor, has this meeting been 7 properly advertised? 8 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: Yes, Mr. 9 Chairman, the meeting has been properly 10 advertised in accordance with the Open Public 11 Meetings Act, been posted on the bulletin 12 board of both the County Clerk and the Board 13 of Chosen Freeholders, and published in the 14 Jersey Journal newspaper. 15 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Mr. 16 Secretary, may I have the roll call please. 17 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 18 Avagliano? 19 COMMISSIONER AVAGLIANO: Here. 20 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 21 Bettinger? 22 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: Here. 23 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 24 Choffo? 25 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Here. 3 1 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 2 DiDomenico? No response. 3 Commissioner Holloway? 4 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Here. 5 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 6 Jasek? 7 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Here. 8 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 9 Mehta? No response. 10 Commissioner Munoz? 11 Commissioner Ng? 12 COMMISSIONER NG: Here. 13 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 14 Fitzgibbons? 15 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Here. 16 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 17 we have a quorum. 18 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Will 19 everyone please rise. 20 (All rise to salute the Flag.) 21 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Do I have 22 a motion to approve the minutes from the last 23 meeting? 24 COMMISSIONER AVAGLIANO: Motion 25 to accept. 4 1 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Second. 2 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 3 on a motion to accept the minutes from 4 February 20, 2008 made by Commissioner 5 Avagliano and seconded by Commissioner Choffo, 6 Commissioner Avagliano? 7 COMMISSIONER AVAGLIANO: Aye. 8 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 9 Bettinger? 10 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: Aye. 11 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 12 Choffo? 13 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Aye. 14 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 15 Holloway? 16 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Abstain. 17 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 18 Jasek? 19 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Aye. 20 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 21 Ng? 22 COMMISSIONER NG: Commissioner 23 Fitzgibbons? 24 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Aye. 25 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 5 1 the motion passed. 2 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Do we 3 have anybody from the public that wishes to 4 speak? 5 (No response.) 6 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Next on 7 the agenda is Memorialization of Resolutions 8 Approved or Conditionally Approved at the last 9 meeting. 10 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 11 the applications approved at the last meeting 12 are as follows: 13 Application 2007-050-SD, Sawmill 14 Park, located at 660, 670 and 680 Belleville 15 Turnpike which is Blocks 150 and 150 A, Lots 16 52.01, 52.02, 52.03 and 44 through 51 in the 17 Town of Kearny. 18 And application 2008-012-SP, 19 Richard Kocher, applicant, located at 207 20 Second Street which is Block 177, Lots 18 and 21 21.2 in the City of Hoboken. 22 Do we have a motion to accept? 23 COMMISSIONER AVAGLIANO: Motion 24 to accept. 25 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: I will 6 1 second the motion. 2 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 3 on a motion to accept made by Commissioner 4 Avagliano and seconded by Commissioner 5 Bettinger, Commissioner Avagliano? 6 COMMISSIONER AVAGLIANO: Aye. 7 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 8 Bettinger? 9 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: Aye. 10 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 11 Choffo? 12 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Aye. 13 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 14 Holloway? 15 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Abstain. 16 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 17 Jasek? 18 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Aye. 19 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 20 Ng? 21 COMMISSIONER NG: Aye. 22 DIRECTOR MARKS: Chairman 23 Fitzgibbons? 24 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Aye. 25 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 7 1 the motion passed. 2 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: 3 Applications to be exempt? 4 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 5 the applications to be declared exempt are as 6 follows: 7 Application 2008-022-SD, WA 8 Residential, located at 100 Caven Point Road 9 which is Block 1497, Lots 28 and 29 in the 10 City of Jersey City. 11 Application 2008-030-SP, 12 Omnipoint Communications, located at 192-202 13 Davis Avenue which is Block 239, Lot 19, in 14 the Town of Kearny. 15 And application 2008-031-SD, 16 Billy Rodolfos, located at 19-21 Ravine Avenue 17 which is Block 70, Lot 34 in the City of 18 Jersey City. 19 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Do we 20 have a motion? 21 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: I will 22 make a motion. 23 COMMISSIONER AVAGLIANO: Motion 24 to accept. 25 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 8 1 on a motion made by Commissioner Choffo and 2 seconded by Commissioner Avagliano, 3 Commissioner Avagliano? 4 COMMISSIONER AVAGLIANO: Aye. 5 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 6 Bettinger? 7 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: Aye. 8 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 9 Choffo? 10 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Aye. 11 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 12 Holloway? 13 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Aye. 14 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 15 Jasek? 16 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Aye. 17 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 18 Ng? 19 COMMISSIONER NG: Aye. 20 DIRECTOR MARKS: Chairman 21 Fitzgibbons? 22 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Aye. 23 DIRECTOR MARKS: The motion 24 passed. 25 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Site 9 1 Plans and Subdivisions and other matters next 2 on the agenda. 3 DIRECTOR MARKS: The first 4 application scheduled for public hearing is 5 application 2007-073-SP, Roadway Express, 6 located at 78 Second Street, which is Block 7 295, Lots 8, 9, 10, 13 in the Town of Kearny. 8 MR. BENNETT: Good evening, Mr. 9 Chairman, members of the Board, Gary Bennett, 10 B-E-N-N-E-T-T, appearing on behalf of Roadway 11 Express in the connection with the application 12 before you. 13 This application is for property 14 located at Second Street and Central Avenue 15 within the Town of Kearny, an application that 16 has been committed for review by this Board 17 subsequent to approval by the Town of Kearny 18 on November 1st of 2007. 19 This calls for Roadway Express 20 to expand their current trucking facility 21 located at that location on Central and Second 22 by adding an additional 42 doors, loading 23 docks, to their facility. 24 In doing so they will have to 25 eliminate eight of the existing doors, so a 10 1 net of 34 doors to the building. 2 As part of this proposal there 3 is going to be substantial renovations to the 4 existing facility and, in addition, there is 5 going to be the planting of over 100 bushes 6 and trees on the facility to further offset it 7 and provide screening and esthetically improve 8 the area. 9 Roadway Express found themselves 10 also at the crossroads, no pun intended, of 11 having to either improve and expand this 12 facility or find it obsolete. 13 They are an international 14 company and they are committed to this area, 15 committed to this site, and for that reason 16 they have expended the funds necessary to 17 commit to this project and I have present here 18 this evening to provide testimony answering 19 specific questions you may have, Frank Hammer 20 who is the Northeast Regional Engineer in 21 charge of properties for Roadway and, in 22 addition, I also have from GBC Design 23 Engineering, John Walsh. Those are the two 24 individuals most familiar with it. 25 With the Board's permission I 11 1 would like to briefly have Mr. Hammer provide 2 a little oversight of the project and then 3 supplement it with some testimony briefly by 4 the engineer. 5 Mr. Hammer. 6 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: State your 7 name spell your last name for the record. 8 MR. HAMMER: Frank Hammer, 9 H-A-M-M-E-R. 10 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: Please 11 raise your right hand. 12 (Mr. Hammer was duly sworn.) 13 MR. BENNETT: Mr. Hammer, by 14 whom are you employed? 15 MR. HAMMER: By Yellow Roadway 16 Corporation of which Roadway is a subsidiary 17 of that corporation. 18 MR. BENNETT: And as your title 19 indicates, Northeast Regional Engineer in 20 charge of properties is part of that area the 21 State of New Jersey? 22 MR. HAMMER: Yes, it is. 23 MR. BENNETT: And obviously you 24 are intimately familiar already with the 25 Kearny site having analyzed it as to its 12 1 viability for the future? 2 MR. HAMMER: That is correct. 3 MR. BENNETT: And as part of 4 that analysis, have you come to the conclusion 5 that without substantial commitment of 6 improvements and somewhat of an inspection of 7 this site, that this facility would become 8 obsolete? 9 MR. HAMMER: This is true, yes. 10 MR. BENNETT: And the company 11 has approved and committed to this project 12 should it be approved by this Board as it has 13 been by the Kearny Board, is that correct? 14 MR. HAMMER: That is correct. 15 MR. BENNETT: And if you would, 16 just briefly describe the nature of the 17 business that is operating on the site. 18 MR. HAMMER: Transfer of 19 freight, transfer of freight for -- it is one 20 of many, many hubs in the area, but this is a 21 hub that we want to expand and have more 22 activity, consolidating some areas and 23 redesigning some of the territory that goes 24 into this particular site. 25 MR. BENNETT: And the site is of 13 1 sufficient size to accommodate the proposed 2 16,575 square foot additions, is it not? 3 MR. HAMMER: Yes, it is. 4 MR. BENNETT: And you have 5 parking around the area, an additional 28 6 parking spaces will be created as a result of 7 this modification; is that correct? 8 MR. HAMMER: Yes. 9 MR. BENNETT: And given the size 10 of the facility, the number of employees, you 11 have sufficient size, sufficient room to make 12 this a viable site from here towards the 13 future? 14 MR. HAMMER: That is correct, 15 yes. 16 MR. BENNETT: And as part of 17 this project you have been requested to take a 18 look at the area by way of landscaping and so 19 forth and you have done that, have you not? 20 MR. HAMMER: We have. 21 MR. BENNETT: And as a result of 22 the plan that was submitted to the county here 23 and also submitted and approved in Kearny, 24 calls for the planting of over 100 trees and 25 bushes along Central and Second Avenue, does 14 1 it not? 2 MR. HAMMER: Yes, it does. 3 MR. BENNETT: In addition, the 4 sidewalks along the length of Second were to 5 be replaced as part of this project, were they 6 not? 7 MR. HAMMER: Yes, they are being 8 replaced, yes. 9 MR. BENNETT: And there was an 10 additional section that was not originally in 11 the plans to be replaced, but upon comments 12 from the Board and the Board's professionals, 13 you reviewed that area of Second also, didn't 14 you? 15 MR. HAMMER: We reviewed it, we 16 went out, looked at it today, and inspected 17 it. 18 MR. BENNETT: Is it not your 19 opinion that you join in the request that Mr. 20 Marks indicated in his correspondence to the 21 Board that that section also should be 22 replaced as part of this? 23 MR. HAMMER: Yes, yes, I agree 24 with this, yes. 25 MR. BENNETT: And that will 15 1 create across the front of your property the 2 entire length of Second new sidewalks and 3 curbs? 4 MR. HAMMER: That is correct, 5 yes. 6 MR. BENNETT: And other than 7 that, the addition itself is nothing more or 8 less than additional doors to provide an 9 easier access for vehicles coming in and out 10 loading and unloading? 11 MR. HAMMER: Yes. 12 MR. BENNETT: I have no further 13 questions of Mr. Hammer directly. 14 If the Board members would like 15 to ask questions now or, in the alternative, I 16 will have Mr. Walsh sworn in and leave both of 17 them under oath so they can field 18 independently any questions. 19 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: I would 20 like to have him sworn in. 21 MR. CALVANICO: Raise your right 22 hand. 23 (Mr. Walsh duly sworn.) 24 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: Witness has 25 been sworn. 16 1 MR. BENNETT: Mr. Walsh, you are 2 a professional engineer; is that correct? 3 MR. WALSH: Yes, sir. 4 MR. BENNETT: Without going too 5 far into it, take me back, if you would, just 6 for the Board's benefit since you would not be 7 appearing here on a regular basis, your 8 educational background. 9 MR. WALSH: Graduate from 10 University of Acron in Ohio in 1987. 11 MR. BENNETT: And when did you 12 become a professional engineer? 13 MR. WALSH: In Ohio, 1993. 14 MR. BENNETT: And you are 15 licensed in the State of Ohio? 16 MR. WALSH: Yes, sir. 17 MR. BENNETT: Any other states? 18 MR. WALSH: Approximately ten to 19 12 states at this point. 20 MR. BENNETT: And your 21 engineering firm GBC Design is located in 22 Acron, Ohio; is that correct? 23 MR. WALSH: Yes, sir. 24 MR. BENNETT: Do you on a 25 regular basis do design work and engineering 17 1 work for Roadway Express and YRC Worldwide? 2 MR. WALSH: Yes, sir. 3 MR. BENNETT: And did you have 4 an opportunity in fact to be retained to 5 design this site plan for this new facility in 6 the addition of the 42 doors? 7 MR. WALSH: Yes, sir. 8 MR. BENNETT: And as part of 9 that design, you have submitted to this Board 10 along with the Kearny Board, designs that 11 indicate not only the additional buildings, 12 but the landscaping surrounding it? 13 MR. WALSH: Yes. 14 MR. BENNETT: And given that 15 design, do you believe that this site is of 16 sufficient size to accommodate the proposed 17 addition? 18 MR. WALSH: Yes. 19 MR. BENNETT: It is a rather 20 large site, isn't it? 21 MR. WALSH: Yes. 22 MR. BENNETT: Given its location 23 it was in need of, for lack of a better term, 24 some facelifting? 25 MR. WALSH: Yes. 18 1 MR. BENNETT: And part of that 2 facelifting is new sidewalks, new landscaping 3 and a brand new part of the building? 4 MR. WALSH: Yes. 5 MR. BENNETT: And have you 6 attempted the best you possibly can from an 7 engineering point of view not only to address 8 the concerns of the Town of Kearny with 9 respect to any questions raised, but address 10 the complaints of Mr. Klein and Mr. Marks in 11 their correspondence? 12 MR. WALSH: Yes. 13 MR. BENNETT: And do you believe 14 the plans you submitted are of the intention 15 here, and Mr. Hammer, that there will be a 16 complete replacement of the Second Avenue 17 sidewalks? Do you believe that that 18 constitutes the best you can possibly address 19 those comments? 20 MR. WALSH: Yes. 21 MR. BENNETT: I have nothing 22 further of Mr. Walsh. If there are any 23 specific questions of either Mr. Walsh or Mr. 24 Hammer, Mr. Chairman, I would be happy to have 25 them field them. 19 1 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Mr. 2 Chairman, Mr. Walsh, is there an entrance from 3 Central Avenue? 4 MR. WALSH: Onto this property, 5 no, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER JASEK: No? Okay. 7 MR. WALSH: The only entrance is 8 off of Second. 9 COMMISSIONER JASEK: The same 10 where it is now? 11 MR. WALSH: Yes. We are going 12 to utilize -- the existing entrance now is 13 going to be utilized for the expansion. 14 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Very good. 15 Do you have any idea about a 16 start of the construction? 17 MR. WALSH: We actually met with 18 the contractor today. We are hoping to start. 19 MR. BENNETT: Yesterday? 20 MR. WALSH: Yesterday, yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER JASEK: The reason 22 I am asking is that the county will pave 23 Central Avenue in about two months, all right? 24 So we don't want two contractors 25 to be in the way of each other. The whole 20 1 Central Avenue will be paved. 2 MR. WALSH: Most of our work -- 3 all the our work is going to be constructed to 4 on our site. 5 COMMISSIONER JASEK: You will do 6 the sidewalk around Central Avenue? 7 MR. WALSH: No, sir, just 8 Second. There is a sidewalk that exists on 9 Central. I belief the original report from 10 staff said there wasn't a sidewalk there, but 11 there is a sidewalk on Central. 12 COMMISSIONER JASEK: I see in 13 the comment letter from the Division of 14 Planning, February 14, Item Number 6, it says 15 that Central Avenue is the subject of 16 significant pedestrian activity and the site 17 plan is to include a four foot sidewalk and 18 four foot wide plantings around the entire 19 frontage on Central Avenue. 20 That is the reason I am asking. 21 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 22 if I could just interrupt. 23 After we initially took a look 24 at the site, both Mr. Tridente and myself 25 separately looked at the site. The area that 21 1 was pretty well routed from pedestrian 2 activity was actually a section north of this 3 block and Central Avenue adjacent to Roadway 4 Express has sidewalks in place. 5 So I would withdraw my 6 recommendation for that. It is the 7 recommendation the sidewalks from Central 8 Avenue to the front gate are in pretty bad 9 shape and it is our recommendation to have 10 those sidewalks replaced. 11 MR. BENNETT: And they will be. 12 We agree with that. 13 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Mr. 14 Chairman, I see in the record from Mr. 15 Tridente that he said the curb and sidewalk 16 along Central Avenue are in serviceable 17 condition. 18 It means it is in very good 19 condition? 20 MR. TRIDENT: Yes, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Okay, I 22 haven't been there for a while. What about 23 the fence on the Central Avenue side? Are you 24 going do put in new fencing? 25 MR. BENNETT: No, sir, we are 22 1 going to keep the existing fence. 2 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Mr. 3 Tridente, what is the condition of that fence? 4 MR. TRIDENTE: Serviceable 5 condition. 6 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Is it 7 acceptable? 8 MR. TRIDENTE: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Very good. 10 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: The 11 photo I see looks like it is leaning, looks 12 like it is getting ready to fall. 13 MR. TRIDENTE: That is the fence 14 that is along Central Avenue. 15 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Adjacent 16 to their property? 17 MR. TRIDENTE: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: The 19 fence is okay, safe? 20 MR. TRIDENTE: Mr. Chairman, I 21 would like to ask, is the section of fence 22 along Second Avenue going to be replaced from 23 the railroad tracks to the front gate? 24 MR. BENNETT: It is a small 25 section coming in. 23 1 MR. WALSH: The plans currently 2 don't show that fence being replaced. 3 MR. TRIDENTE: I make a 4 recommendation that they rehabilitate that, 5 they bring it up. Some of the cross members 6 are missing. 7 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Could 8 you tell me what street this is? Is it Second 9 Street? 10 MR. TRIDENTE: Second Street. 11 MR. WALSH: Which section is 12 that, which section of fence? 13 MR. TRIDENTE: From the railroad 14 tracks to the entrance to the front gate. 15 MR. WALSH: That is fine. 16 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 17 we do have Mr. Lee Klein here from T&M who 18 prepared a comment letter and prepared the 19 traffic study. 20 MR. KLEIN: Lee Klein from T&M 21 Associates. I had a couple of 22 clarification-type questions. 23 If you could just give us an 24 idea of the existing number of employees that 25 are on the site? Maybe Mr. Hammer. 24 1 MR. BENNETT: We have the 2 terminal manager here. 3 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: State your 4 name, spell your last name for the record. 5 MR. SMILEY: Steve Smiley, 6 S-M-I-L-E-Y. 7 (Mr. Smiley was duly sworn.) 8 MR. BENNETT: Mr. Smiley is the 9 terminal manager for this particular facility. 10 MR. SMILEY: Presently I have 11 about 100 employees including drivers, dock 12 men, clerical staff, supervisory and 13 janitorial. 14 MR. KLEIN: And the future 15 number of employees? 16 MR. SMILEY: The future we are 17 going to gain 18 drivers and eleven dockmen 18 and probably three or four clerks depending on 19 rate studies. 20 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Mr. 21 Chairman, I have a question, if I may. 22 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Do you 24 have any maintenance planned for the grounds 25 here? 25 1 MR. SMILEY: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: I know 3 this area very well and not just your company 4 but other companies along the fence outside 5 it, there is always debris all over. 6 MR. SMILEY: We have two 7 full-time janitors on staff and as it gets 8 nicer out they do go and clean that up and cut 9 the grass and do all those things. 10 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Thank 11 you. 12 MR. KLEIN: Mr. Smiley, if you 13 could tell us how many existing loading docks 14 there are today and the new total. 15 MR. SMILEY: Right now I think 16 it is 72 and we are adding. 17 MR. KLEIN: Forty-two and adding 18 eight? 19 MR. SMILEY: So it is going to 20 be 106. 21 MR. KLEIN: I have no further 22 questions. 23 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: I have a 24 question, Mr. Chairman. 25 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: 26 1 Commissioner Choffo. 2 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Will you 3 increase the number of driveways or put in 4 another driveway with the increase? 5 MR. SMILEY: You are gaining 6 more people coming in, but it is the same 7 number of trucks going up. They only go out 8 one at a time. It is a pretty large entrance. 9 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: That's it. 10 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Anybody 11 else have questions? 12 MR. TRIDENTE: Mr. Chairman, the 13 status of the terminal, is it currently now a 14 pickup and delivery or will it be changed to a 15 break bulk pickup? 16 MR. SMILEY: No, just a pickup 17 and delivery. 18 MR. TRIDENTE: One other 19 question. The fence along Second Avenue south 20 of the gate, is that going to be repaired? 21 MR. SMILEY: Yes. 22 MR. TRIDENTE: All of that. 23 MR. SMILEY: Yes, all replaced 24 and fixed. 25 MR. TRIDENTE: Are you going to 27 1 install some sort of barriers along the inside 2 of the fence that way when the yard traffic 3 backs up, the fence -- that they don't go 4 through the fence? 5 MR. SMILEY: In the one section 6 there is -- 7 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: There 8 will be a curb and gutter. 9 MR. TRIDENTE: They should put 10 something along there. 11 MR. SMILEY: A curb there. 12 MR. HAMMER: There is going to 13 be a curb installed to prevent the trailers 14 from backing up against to the fence. 15 MR. TRIDENTE: It should be set 16 at a distance for those trailers that have the 17 tandems set up further on those trailers so 18 that way when they back up that might be the 19 case of the particular situation there, just 20 note. 21 No further questions. 22 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: I have 23 one more question if I may, Mr. Chairman. 24 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Go ahead. 25 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Second 28 1 Street, I notice there are telephone polls 2 there. 3 Are you putting trees along 4 Second Street? Trees. 5 MR. WALSH: The trees exist. I 6 think they are on our property now on the 7 inside of the fence and we are going to 8 continue that all the way down Second Street. 9 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Inside, 10 not outside? 11 MR. WALSH: All the way down 12 inside the fence. They would be outside of 13 it. 14 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Mr. 15 Bennett, I believe you mentioned this already, 16 but all the issues in Mr. Marks' letter and 17 T&M's letter have been talked about? 18 MR. BENNETT: Mr. Klein is 19 nodding his head and Mr. Marks, the primary 20 comment of concerns in his letter was that 21 area of sidewalk on Second Avenue, definitely 22 going to replace that. 23 MR. KLEIN: The only other 24 question I have, I think, is probably for Mr. 25 Walsh regarding drainage. 29 1 Right now the site drains the 2 way it does and in the future they will have 3 roof drains that will continue to drain. 4 Could you give us a little 5 information on where the drains eventually get 6 to? 7 MR. WALSH: Get to? I mean 8 right now the whole site is an impervious -- 9 it is either building or asphalt. 10 We are tearing out asphalt and 11 adding building. We are not changing the site 12 in the way it is today. 13 We are working with the town of 14 Kearny in taking the majority of the site 15 water that dumps into a combined sanitary and 16 storm sewer system and rerouting it into a 17 dedicated storm system on Second Avenue. 18 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Anyone 19 else? 20 Do we have a motion? Before 21 they make a motion -- 22 DIRECTOR MARKS: Note 23 Commissioner DiDomenico is now present. 24 (Ms. DiDomenico enters room.) 25 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Do we 30 1 have a motion to approve? 2 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: I will 3 make a motion to approve. 4 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: I will 5 second it. 6 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 7 on a motion to approve application 2007-073-SP 8 made by Commissioner Bettinger and seconded by 9 Commissioner Choffo, Commissioner Avagliano? 10 COMMISSIONER AVAGLIANO: Aye. 11 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 12 Bettinger? 13 14 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: Aye. 15 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 16 Choffo? 17 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Aye. 18 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 19 DiDomenico? 20 COMMISSIONER DiDOMENICO: Aye. 21 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 22 Holloway? 23 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Aye. 24 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 25 Jasek? 31 1 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Aye. 2 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 3 Ng? 4 COMMISSIONER NG: Aye. 5 DIRECTOR MARKS: Chairman. 6 Fitzgibbons? 7 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Aye. 8 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 9 the motion passes. 10 MR. BENNETT: Thank you very 11 much. We appreciate it. 12 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Can we 13 make sure that the conditions are done? 14 Sometimes when we put conditions out half the 15 people don't do it. 16 MR. HAMMER: Yes. 17 DIRECTOR MARKS: The conditions 18 will appear in the memorialize resolution for 19 next month. 20 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Okay. 21 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 22 the next application scheduled for public 23 hearing is 2007-078-SP which is Block 114 24 Development, LLC, located on Fourteenth Street 25 which is Block 114, Lots 18, 19 and parts of 32 1 14 through 17 in the City of Hoboken. 2 MR. Curley: John J. Curley, 3 C-U-R-L-E-Y, appearing for the applicant. 4 This application is for a parcel 5 of land in the City of Hoboken on Fourteenth 6 Street between Grand and Adams. 7 It is a proposed movie theater. 8 The site was before the Board previously on 9 the subdivision application and this is one of 10 the three parcels created by the subdivision. 11 The property is 50 by 200, 12 10,000 square feet. The proposed theater 13 would have five screens. The project was 14 approved by the Hoboken Planning Board on 15 October 15th, 2007, subject to a County 16 Planning Board review and approval. 17 With respect to Hoboken, the 18 property is in what is known as the northwest 19 redevelopment area, zone three which is the 20 commercial district, and the applicant is the 21 designated redeveloper under that 22 redevelopment plan and has an agreement with 23 the City of Hoboken to act as redeveloper. 24 This matter was reviewed by the 25 technical review committee on March 5, 2008. 33 1 We made some additional submissions following 2 that review and because we made the 3 submissions properly, we are on for tonight's 4 meeting. 5 I understand that the major open 6 issue with respect to this application is the 7 canopy or marquis which is proposed to be on 8 the theater and we will address that in the 9 course of our discussions. 10 I would like to call the civil 11 engineer for the project, Andy Missey, to 12 describe the project and the comments that 13 have been received from the county's experts. 14 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: Please 15 state your name and spell your last name for 16 the record. 17 MR. MISSEY: Andrew H. Missey, 18 M-I-S-S-E-Y. 19 (Mr. Missey was duly sworn). 20 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: The witness 21 has been sworn, Mr. Chairman. 22 MR. CURLEY: Mr. Missey, could 23 you briefly review your qualifications as a 24 civil engineer? 25 MR. MISSEY: Yes. I am a 34 1 licensed professional engineer in the State of 2 New Jersey. I have been practicing 3 engineering for the past 25 years, appeared 4 before you in November of last year on behalf 5 of this same applicant in the matter of the 6 subdivision of the parcel and my 7 qualifications since that time have not 8 changed. 9 MR. CURLEY: I would offer Mr. 10 Missey as an expert in civil engineering. 11 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Okay. 12 MR. CURLEY: I have an exhibit 13 with me. If I may place it on the easel. 14 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Yes, you 15 can. 16 Mark the exhibit, please. 17 MR. CURLEY: Mr. Chairman, shall 18 we mark that as A-1? 19 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Yes. 20 (Exhibit so marked.) 21 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: Mr. Missey, 22 give us the official reference of the 23 document. 24 These have already been 25 submitted to the Board, yes? 35 1 MR. CURLEY: That's correct. 2 This plan is entitled Preliminary and Final 3 Site Plan Block 114 Development, LLC, Block 4 114, parts of Lots 14 to 17, Lots 18 and 19. 5 It has initial issue date of 6 March 29th of 2007 and its most recent 7 revision date is October 8 of 2007. 8 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: Thank you. 9 MR. MISSEY: What Exhibit A-1 10 indicates is the cinema, the five screen 11 cinema that is proposed for the site. 12 Right now the site is vacant and 13 it comprises the most northerly portion of 14 Block 114 which is bounded by Fourteenth 15 Street and the viaduct to the north, Grand 16 Street to the east, and Adams Street to the 17 west. 18 The building that is proposed 19 here will occupy all of this property, all of 20 the lot, and it will have, as Mr. Curly stated 21 before, five auditoriums, five screens, two on 22 the ground floor and three on a second level 23 of the theater. 24 The theaters or the auditoriums 25 on the first level will be about 250-seat 36 1 theaters each and the theaters on the upper 2 level will be about 145 seats each. 3 The main entrance to this 4 building, to this new cinema, will be about 5 the middle portion of the Fourteenth Street 6 frontage. There will also be exit doors on 7 both the Grand Street side and the Adams 8 Street side for emergency purposes solely. 9 Those will be exits. The 10 utilities will all be extended from either 11 Grand or Adams Street. There will be no 12 utility connections to serve this building 13 made from any of the utilities which are now 14 on the Fourteenth Street right of way. 15 The streetscape along both Grand 16 Street and Adams Street have begun by the 17 redevelopment of the residential portions of 18 that street and that will be carried through 19 this portion of the block as well. 20 There will be decorative lamp 21 posts installed and certain street trees 22 planted similar to how Grand Street and Adams 23 Street are right now redeveloped. 24 MR. CURLEY: Mr. Missey, was the 25 correction made by the landscape architect 37 1 with respect to the tree business to comply 2 with the county? 3 MR. MISSEY: The perforated pipe 4 that was originally included in the detail has 5 now been taken off the drawings, yes. 6 MR. CURLEY: Were the other 7 comments received by the, from the county's 8 experts addressed in the plans that were 9 submitted? 10 MR. MISSEY: That's correct. 11 MR. CURLEY: I have no other 12 questions. 13 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Bob, do 14 you have a question? 15 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Mr. 16 Chairman, we discussed this project in the 17 planning review committee until death. 18 The major problem or major 19 obstacle is the canopy or marquis in front of 20 the theater on Fourteenth Street along the 21 Fourteenth Street viaduct. 22 As you know, we are very close 23 to design and construction of the brand new 24 viaduct. 25 The situation is such that after 38 1 last year's collapse of the bridge in 2 Minnesota, every day in the newspaper was a 3 story on Skyway and Fourteenth viaducts. 4 Due to that fact that it is on 5 the priority list of everybody, starting with 6 the Governor, we are receiving $45 million 7 construction money in 2009. So we will be 8 ready for construction. 9 We cannot have any obstacle 10 along the viaduct because there will be 11 cranes, there will be delivery trucks with the 12 steel, there will be concrete truck, so it is 13 absolutely necessary that until the 14 construction is completed, that there be no 15 obstruction from the building to the county 16 right of way. 17 Either you will design the 18 canopy in such a way that it can be removed or 19 you will, for the time until construction, you 20 will do some converse canopy or it is up to 21 you, but we cannot have any protrusion during 22 the construction of the viaduct. 23 MR. CURLEY: I believe that the 24 applicant understands that and I would point 25 out that the canopy and marquis are in the 39 1 county right of way and would require a 2 franchise from the county subject to whichever 3 condition the county imposes with respect to 4 the use of that right of way area. 5 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: I have a 6 question. 7 You had that in the plan. Did 8 you ever think about a retractable canopy? 9 MR. CURLEY: We haven't gone 10 that far. We weren't aware that it was going 11 to be an issue with the county's proposed 12 construction until we went through the review 13 of the plan. 14 The canopy does protrude more 15 prominently in one particular area, that is in 16 front of the entrance to the theater, and it 17 was our expectation that that would be cut 18 back, but I can certainly appreciate Mr. 19 Jasek's concerns with respect to the 20 construction project, particularly when the 21 county is not 100 percent sure about how that 22 project is going to be executed. 23 So reasonable conditions with 24 respect to the canopy are expected by the 25 applicant and we will abide by those 40 1 conditions. 2 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Mr. 3 Chairman, let me just further explain to the 4 Board. 5 The new viaduct will be 12 feet 6 wider on that south side than it is now. It 7 means it will be only three feet distance from 8 the curb. 9 In order to construct that new 10 section of the viaduct, the viaduct will be 11 completely new. We will construct one half, 12 we will demolish one half, build a new one. 13 Have the traffic run on the existing and 14 switch it so there will be no interaction in 15 the traffic. 16 But I definitely need that room 17 for the construction. 18 So the new construction will be 19 16 feet from the face of the building, edge of 20 the viaduct. I need that 16 feet, every inch 21 of that, in order to build it, to have the 22 crane there, to have the supplies with the 23 steel and building, so that is one condition 24 which really cannot be compromised. 25 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: Mr. 41 1 Chairman, I have a question. Is there a 2 parking facility nearby? 3 MR. CURLEY: Yes, there is. On 4 Park Avenue there is parking on Park and there 5 is also a new eight level parking garage, one 6 acre per level, eight acres of parking which 7 is on 15th. 8 Now, not all of that parking is 9 open for public use, some of it supports 10 condominium development, but there is a 11 substantial amount of parking that is 12 available at that location. 13 The theory behind having this 14 urban-type theater with relatively small 15 auditoriums is not to attract a crowd from out 16 of town, it is really intended to be more of a 17 walking pedestrian facility that will fit in 18 with the emerging neighborhood up at the 19 northwest section of Hoboken. 20 For example, there is 21 approximately a 150-unit condominium building 22 on the same block that was built approximately 23 three years ago. There is a similar building 24 caddy corner to that with two 25 units that 25 was built maybe two years ago. 42 1 So we have what is growing as a 2 pedestrian-friendly community in an area in 3 the Town of Hoboken. 4 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Mr. 5 Chairman, I have a question. 6 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Is this 8 a private theater? 9 MR. CURLEY: Yes, it is. It 10 will be built and operated by Clearview 11 Cinema. 12 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Private 13 meaning only the Hoboken community who lives 14 in that surrounding area can do that? 15 MR. CURLEY: No, it is open to 16 the public. 17 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: So you 18 are assuming people won't drive there? 19 MR. CURLEY: We will assume 20 those who go there will go to park on Park or 21 the other public parking. 22 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: How far 23 from the theater? 24 MR. CURLEY: Approximately two 25 to three blocks. 43 1 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: And I 2 know the area, I am familiar with it because I 3 am from Hoboken and that -- actually that 4 community is going to grow down there, going 5 to be huge development down there and if you 6 know Hoboken, if you think you are going to 7 park on the street and you don't have a 8 permit, forget about it. You won't have a car 9 to go back to. 10 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Never 11 even seen a theater with no parking at all. 12 That is crazy. 13 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Ever see 14 the Lowe's? Remember the Lowe's? Remember 15 the Stanley Theater? 16 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: How far 17 back is that, 1940? 18 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 19 Mr. Edwin Reimon is here from Medina 20 Consultants. He prepared a comment letter and 21 the applicant also has, Mr. John Pavlovich 22 from Edwards and Kelcy -- Jacobs, Edwards & 23 Kelcy and, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Pavlovich is the 24 qualified traffic engineer expert for the 25 applicant. 44 1 MR. REIMON: Edwin Reimon from 2 Medina Consultants. 3 I received a revised lighting 4 plan that complies with the comments that we 5 had. We haven't received the revised plan 6 that shows that the actual detail of the three 7 feet without the pipe connection, so if you 8 can actually forward that to me. 9 MR. CURLEY: We will, we will 10 forward that immediately. 11 MR. REIMON: We agree also with 12 all the county made reports with regard to the 13 maintenance and traffic for the construction 14 of the viaduct. 15 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Mr. 16 Reimon, do you have a concern about no 17 parking? 18 MR. REIMON: Well, actually. 19 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Not even 20 handicapped parking. It is a concern. I am 21 not trying to be funny. 22 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: Not 23 even handicapped? 24 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: I have 25 no parking. 45 1 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: It is 2 discriminating to a handicapped person. 3 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: They 4 would rather have no cars in there, but they 5 are putting a public theater that anybody can 6 go there. 7 Unless it is private and you 8 said you have to live in Hoboken five blocks 9 north, south, east or west. So if I live in 10 Jersey City, which I do, maybe I would like to 11 go down there and drive. 12 MR. REIMON: Yes. My 13 personal opinion regarding parking is that 14 this urban area is very densely populated. 15 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: I 16 understand that. 17 MR. REIMON: That is number one. 18 I believe that providing centralized parking 19 like this, garages that are like four-, 20 five-story garages that are three, four blocks 21 away actually discourage people from driving 22 too much at one point, makes this location 23 more like a community for people that are in 24 the neighborhood. 25 I also look at the crowd in the 46 1 region. It is not just that specific section 2 of Hoboken. We have in this area in about a 3 15-mile radius, a large number of theaters 4 that provide the same movies. 5 We are going to have in the 6 Meadowlands the Xanadu that is going to have 7 fifteen screens. We have in Clifton, fourteen 8 screens. We have in Secaucus two theaters 9 that are mostly empty. 10 I am not going to say I have my 11 doubts about if they are going to be able to 12 make some money in those theaters, but 13 regarding traffic which is your specific 14 question, I would emphasize again that 15 providing limited number of parking spaces, it 16 is actually a traffic calming opportunity for 17 the municipalities to control the numbers of 18 vehicles that are coming in and going out in 19 the roads. 20 Now, if we are providing -- if 21 we are providing eight stories or five stories 22 of parking, there is something called a shared 23 parking space that is a new -- really not that 24 new, for the last 15, 20 years, you can use 25 the same parking space that is assigned to 47 1 somebody who liveS in the neighborhood and 2 share that with somebody that is coming there 3 to do business or to use the venues in the 4 municipality. And I believe this is going to 5 be a good opportunity to do so. 6 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: I believe 7 the concept of that theater being built in 8 Hoboken is to serve the community which is -- 9 they don't use their cars in Hoboken, they 10 walk. 11 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: If you 12 are handicapped, you can't. 13 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: If you 14 are handicapped, they provide that the person 15 can be dropped off. 16 MR. REIMON: The disadvantage of 17 this specific facility is that there are only 18 handicapped access through the corners of the 19 sidewalk where you have the handicapped ramps. 20 There is nothing else for the handicapped to 21 actually come and take advantage. 22 So if a handicapped is coming to 23 the site, he has to be dropped off on the side 24 street or they are going to have to park two 25 blocks away and then come with somebody with a 48 1 wheelchair and come to the facility. 2 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: That is 3 not being accessible to handicapped. 4 MR. REIMON: Well, this is what 5 happened. I am not the attorney. 6 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: I 7 understand that. 8 MR. REIMON: All I can say is 9 there is access for handicapped through the 10 sidewalks. 11 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: What 12 about the building itself? Since there is no 13 parking I don't want to park two blocks away 14 and somebody wheel me two blocks to the 15 theater. 16 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Reimon is 17 the Board's engineer. I would recommend the 18 Board ask Mr. Pavlovich who is the traffic 19 engineer for the applicant to come up and 20 address these questions. 21 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: State your 22 name and spell your last name for the record. 23 MR. PAVLOVICH: 24 P-A-V-L-O-V-I-C-H, Pavlovich. 25 MR. CALVANICO: Please raise 49 1 your right hand. 2 (Mr. Pavlovich was duly sworn.) 3 MR. CURLEY: I believe the Board 4 is familiar with Mr. Pavlovich who has 5 appeared here on prior occasions and I would 6 offer him as an expert in traffic engineering. 7 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: One of 8 the questions was handicapped access if 9 somebody is going to drop someone off. Is it 10 friendly for handicapped with wheelchairs? Is 11 there access to being dropped off in front of 12 the theater? 13 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: Without 14 blocking the street. 15 MR. PAVLOVICH: No provisions at 16 this time to allow for that. The -- typically 17 in urban settings with any type of facility, 18 municipalities do dedicate curbside spaces for 19 handicapped use and make provisions for ramps 20 off of the curb lane to access the sidewalk. 21 This is a very short block and 22 as part of the intersection, improvements in 23 the area, there are handicapped ramps at 24 either end. 25 If they were to be dropped off 50 1 they would be dropped off near the corner and 2 use that access at the corner for the 3 building. 4 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: If I am 5 dropping off a member of my family who is 6 handicapped, would I be blocking the street in 7 order to get them out of the car? 8 MR. PAVLOVICH: I am not quite 9 sure of the answer to that other than at the 10 corner there is a clearance area of 50 feet 11 from the corners. A vehicle could stop in 12 there as a standing vehicle to allow a 13 handicapped person with a wheelchair to get 14 out on the crosswalk and the car would be 15 moved, so under that scenario the car would 16 not block the traffic. 17 DIRECTOR MARKS: I have a 18 question for Mr. Pavlovich, Mr. Chairman. 19 Mr. Pavlovich, under the ITE, 20 International Transportation Engineers 21 scenario or their guidelines, are there, given 22 a 928-seat theater, are there recommendations 23 that the ITE has for the number of handicapped 24 parking spaces? 25 MR. PAVLOVICH: There are some 51 1 standards for that. Most of those standards 2 normally are applying to sites that have 3 on-site parking, and so if you are providing 4 let's say 100 parking spaces as part of the 5 particular projects on site, a certain 6 percentage of those spaces have to be for 7 handicapped use. 8 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 9 given a 928-seat theater, what would be the 10 ITE recommendation for handicapped parking 11 spaces? 12 MR. PAVLOVICH: Once again, I 13 can't -- I am not familiar with that number. 14 I could look that up and get 15 back to you, but as in this case, those 16 standards normally apply to on-site parking 17 where they are either an isolated location or 18 shared parking or all the parking is provided 19 on site. 20 When you have urban settings, 21 those standards normally don't apply because I 22 can't dedicate on-street parking spaces or 23 parking spaces that may be in other garages or 24 other facilities. 25 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 52 1 there are -- the ITE is predominately a 2 suburban standard, but it is basically a 3 sliding scale from rural low density 4 development through middle suburban 5 development and it does recognize the ITE 6 standards for traffic generation and parking, 7 does recognize urban standards for higher 8 density developments, so I would just 9 recommend that the Board, the Board has a 10 salient point in the parking for handicapped 11 persons, the ADA accessible handicapped 12 parking spaces, so I think it would be 13 beneficial for the Board's further review and 14 examination to establish what the -- what is 15 ITE's -- what is generally accepted by traffic 16 engineers in terms of traffic generation and 17 parking. 18 It is something that Mr. 19 Pavlovich should at least furnish to the 20 Board, what the ITE recommendation would be. 21 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: I got to 22 say one thing. Where are you going to put the 23 parking? They don't own the land. Where are 24 you going to have access to parking for 25 handicapped here? That is the problem. 53 1 You got to understand the 2 situation in Hoboken. In the next maybe five 3 years there will be about sixty thousand 4 people living in Hoboken. 5 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: It is 6 overdevelopment. Why make it worse. 7 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: That 8 ain't making it worse, he is making it better 9 for some of the residents, some benefit, 10 especially kids. The kids in Hoboken have no 11 place to go to watch a movie. 12 COMMISSIONER NG: So the movie 13 will be for Hoboken only? 14 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: If you 15 want to come in you have a parking spot and 16 look at the movie. When you go to your Union 17 City -- 18 COMMISSIONER NG: We have plenty 19 of parking. 20 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: But you 21 don't have the situation we have. 22 COMMISSIONER NG: Then why build 23 a movie theater without parking? That is the 24 chaos. It will be -- 25 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: I am just 54 1 trying to say this is, to me, is a concept. 2 An urban area like that, an urban area like 3 that should have something for the people of 4 Hoboken and that is the way I am looking at 5 it. 6 I am not looking at -- to me, I 7 am -- the municipality wants this thing. The 8 municipality approved it. It is for their 9 municipality, for the benefit of the people of 10 their community. 11 COMMISSIONER NG: It would have 12 to be for the benefit of Hudson County. 13 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: No it 14 don't, no it don't, no it don't. They build 15 it for their community. 16 Union City builds what they want 17 to build, Jersey City builds what they want to 18 build, okay? This was a plan, a plan for the 19 people to have a theater which we don't have 20 in Hoboken. We don't have a theater. 21 COMMISSIONER AVAGLIANO: That's 22 true. 23 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: We don't 24 have a theater in Hoboken. We have to travel 25 to Jersey City, we got to travel to Edgewater, 55 1 we got to travel all over, and these 2 municipalities that have the room -- all 3 right? -- they are fortunate. Hoboken is not 4 fortunate. It is not fortunate. 5 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Mr. 6 Chairman, I have a question. 7 Hoboken did approve this plan, I 8 believe. 9 MR. PAVLOVICH: Yes, as a matter 10 of fact, Hoboken amended its redevelopment 11 plan specifically to allow a theater without a 12 parking requirement knowing full well that it 13 was intended that the theater would 14 essentially be a community resource. 15 Now it is open to the public and 16 anyone can come to it, but it is there 17 primarily to serve residents of that area of 18 Hoboken and Hoboken generally. 19 The last theater in Hoboken was 20 at 5 Marine View Plaza and that shut down and 21 became a bank about four years ago. 22 So since that point in time 23 Hoboken has not had a theater and I will point 24 out that the 5 Marine View theater itself did 25 not have parking but there was parking in that 56 1 neighborhood similar to what is the situation 2 at Fourteenth Street. 3 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Try to 4 resolve this before the Board members are 5 splitting hairs. 6 Do you think it is feasible 7 possibly to go back to Hoboken and on each 8 corner ask if they could designate one to two 9 parking for 15- to 20-minute drop off? 10 MR. PAVLOVICH: If the County 11 makes that recommendation, certainly it would 12 be considered very carefully by Hoboken. I 13 would see no reason why we would not support 14 such a recommendation so that if we had a 15 handicapped dropoff space on Adams Street, for 16 example, near the curb cut that allows someone 17 to have access from the street onto the 18 sidewalk, it is not a long distance from the 19 corner. It is only a hundred feet to the 20 midpoint of the block. 21 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Was this 22 question ever presented to you by -- this was 23 approved by the Planning Board or Zoning 24 Board? 25 MR. PAVLOVICH: By the Planning 57 1 Board and also -- 2 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Was it 3 put to you by the Planning Board, that is the 4 question. 5 MR. PAVLOVICH: The Planning 6 Board did not address handicapped parking. 7 It was also approved by the city 8 council. The city council amended the 9 redevelopment plan to accommodate this type of 10 project. 11 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: I am 12 curious, I don't know how Hoboken Planning 13 Board works, but they should have had this in 14 consideration, having spots designated 15 off-street parking for handicapped, okay? 16 They got some around the city, 17 all over the City of Hoboken. You pull in if 18 you have the handicapped sign, all right? 19 I think they missed the boat on 20 that one. I think -- is there a space, are 21 there spots available? 22 MR. PAVLOVICH: There is 23 on-street parking and certainly the applicant 24 would be very happy to endorse having an 25 on-street parking space as a handicapped 58 1 access. 2 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Could 3 this Board -- I don't know how we are going to 4 do it, suggest that the municipality of 5 Hoboken designate two, three handicapped 6 spots? 7 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 8 it would be in the right and jurisdiction of 9 the Board to make that requirement, that 10 condition. 11 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: You could 12 do that? 13 DIRECTOR MARKS: If that is the 14 condition of the Board, I believe that would 15 be acceptable. 16 COMMISSIONER NG: Mr. Chairman, 17 even if we have parking available for 18 handicapped we are discriminating the normal 19 people that are not handicapped for parking. 20 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: So when 21 you tell me -- you are going to tell me we are 22 going to stop this project and have no theater 23 at all, is that what you are telling me? Or 24 they are going to have to spend $20 million 25 for a piece of property or $15 million to 59 1 build parking? 2 Do you know the area? I know 3 the area. There is no room there. There is 4 no room at all there. There is no room to do 5 anything in Hoboken. That is why that theater 6 is being built, actually built for the 7 community. 8 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: I have a 9 question, Mr. Chairman. 10 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: 11 Commissioner Choffo. 12 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: 13 Commissioner Jasek, is Grand or Adam a county 14 road? 15 COMMISSIONER JASEK: No, not 16 over there. Let me just add there will be no 17 parking under the viaduct. After 911, Federal 18 regulation states that there should be no 19 parking under the bridges for safety reasons. 20 Since we are taking the Federal 21 money we have to develop this so that we will 22 create a park, like stone with landscaping, 23 benches, whatever they can do, the farm 24 market, some activity like that, but there 25 will be no parking. 60 1 My other problem with this 2 design was the access of the fire engine to 3 the front of the theater. 4 The main entrance will be on the 5 viaduct side on Fourteenth Street from either 6 Grand Street or Adams Street it is such a 7 sharp turn into 20 foot wide marginal road and 8 I asked during the review meeting to have a 9 letter from the Hoboken fire official that he 10 reviewed this project and he approved it 11 because I don't have it on my conscience there 12 should be 928 people and fire in the building 13 and fire engine cannot get to it. 14 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: The fire 15 official did approve it. 16 COMMISSIONER JASEK: No. I am 17 asking to have it in writing to this Board 18 from the fire official that he did approve 19 this project. 20 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Did the 21 fire official approve the project? 22 MR. PAVLOVICH: Yes, and there 23 is a stamp of approval on a plan in the city 24 hall in Hoboken. I don't have the plan with 25 me, but I do have the architect here who has 61 1 discussed this with the fire official or 2 rather has submitted the plans for review. 3 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Mr. 4 Chairman, I asked during the plan review on 5 the 6th of March to have the letter from the 6 fire official concerning this and I would like 7 to have that letter specifically. 8 MR. PAVLOVICH: I could 9 certainly supply Mr. Jasek with a copy of the 10 approved plans. 11 COMMISSIONER JASEK: I am 12 talking about a letter from the fire official. 13 So there is absolutely no mistake, no 14 misunderstanding. 15 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: I have a 16 question, Mr. Chairman. 17 I was at that meeting and I 18 remember Commissioner Jasek requesting that 19 specifically. 20 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Yes, I 21 inquired as to whether there is a letter. 22 There is no letter. There is 23 only an approval of the plans by the fire 24 official. 25 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: By the 62 1 subcode official or the fire official? 2 MR. PAVLOVICH: Fire subcode 3 official. 4 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: The fire 5 subcode official, you have to have an approval 6 from the fire official. Subcode official 7 approves the plans as the sprinklers and fire 8 lanes, but the final say whether the apparatus 9 and everything could go into that site is from 10 the fire official. 11 Did the Planning Board ever ask 12 you that question from Hoboken? 13 MR. PAVLOVICH: No, the Planning 14 Board did not. 15 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 16 if I may, I have a question for Mr. Missey or 17 Mr. Pavlovich. 18 Did they prepare a plan with a 19 turning template for a fire engine for the 20 site? 21 MR. PAVLOVICH: I did not. 22 MR. MISSEY: No, I did not 23 either. 24 DIRECTOR MARKS: I think it 25 would be necessary, in addition to the letter 63 1 from the fire official, I think it would be 2 appropriate for the engineer also and the 3 traffic engineer to prepare a template with a 4 fire engine, fire apparatus. 5 In addition, Mr. Chairman, I 6 would recommend that Mr. Pavlovich prepare a 7 letter to the Board stating the ITE's 8 recommended handicapped parking requirements 9 for a 928-seat theater. 10 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Mr. 11 Chairman, I have a question. 12 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Go ahead. 13 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: When you 14 went in front of Hoboken, was it ever 15 discussed, the expansion of the viaduct? Did 16 that ever come up? 17 MR. CURLEY: Yes, as a matter of 18 fact, and the Board assumed that we would be 19 making application to this Board and that this 20 Board would certainly consider that in 21 reviewing the application. 22 As a matter of fact, we brought 23 it up to make sure it was known to the Hoboken 24 Planning Board. 25 I believe I spoke to Mr. Jasek 64 1 while this matter was pending before the 2 Hoboken Planning Board to try to get as much 3 information as possible about the expansion. 4 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: You know, 5 I want it there in, Hoboken but what it looks 6 like here is that somebody missed the ball 7 there in Hoboken. Dropped the ball. 8 The Planning Board didn't have 9 no idea about oversight parking for 10 handicapped, fire official didn't sign off on 11 the access to fire vehicles to the building. 12 What would you suggest, Mr. 13 Marks? 14 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, I 15 do have one more question for either Mr. 16 Missey or Mr. Jasek. 17 At the two points across the 18 street from the viaduct, what are the 19 approximate elevations of the viaduct at both 20 Grand Street and Adams Street and what would 21 be the mean elevation at the front door. And 22 would that present a problem for the turning 23 template of any fire apparatus responding. 24 COMMISSIONER JASEK: Mr. 25 Chairman, at this point the viaduct will be 65 1 above the ground floor, but I am concerned not 2 about the height of the viaduct like we have 3 at Clinton Street when every garbage truck 4 hits the viaduct, I am concerned physically 5 the fire trucks turning from the theater into 6 the margin. 7 It is narrow 21 foot wide 8 marginal road and I don't think a fire engine 9 can make it. 10 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Can I see 11 our engineer? 12 MR. REIMON: Yes, Mr. Chairman? 13 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: When you 14 look at that site, do you think a fire 15 apparatus can go into there? 16 MR. REIMON: The situation we 17 have in here is that there are several 18 different sizes of fire trucks. Depends which 19 of the ones we are talking about. 20 There is one specific fire truck 21 which is not going to make it which is the one 22 that has the ladder on top and that has a very 23 high clearance. 24 I don't think that is going to 25 be able to fit regardless of turning radius 66 1 that we put at Adams or Grand, it is a matter 2 of height. 3 The canopy is not relevant as 4 far as the turning radius in this case. What 5 is really relevant is the actual height of the 6 bottom of a super structure of a viaduct that 7 I think Mr. Jasek brought a good -- would 8 agree with me, the truck is going to be high, 9 very high as far as the top of that truck 10 making the turn. 11 COMMISSIONER JASEK: The viaduct 12 will be on the level of the second floor at 13 the location of the theater so the truck can 14 go underneath. 15 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: If 16 anything else is going to be built there, Bob, 17 it is going to be there anyway unless it is a 18 vacant lot. If you build something other than 19 a theater, dwelling, four-story dwelling. 20 COMMISSIONER JASEK: It will be 21 the same situation. 22 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: That's 23 where you don't build it. You are risking 920 24 people. 25 COMMISSIONER JASEK: It has to 67 1 be reviewed by the fire marshal. 2 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: You are 3 not really risking it because the building 4 will be fully sprinkled. 5 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Wait. 6 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: It will 7 be fully up to code, it will have the egresses 8 and it will meet state fire safety codes, 9 maybe over and beyond the fire safety. 10 The problem is, if there is 11 something that happens, how do you evacuate 12 the people or how do the firemen go in there 13 and help the people out of the building? 14 MR. REIMON: The problem is if 15 that ladder has to move up and it has to be on 16 that side street where the viaduct is, there 17 is no room for the ladder to move. 18 The only truck that you can have 19 there is the typical truck that has the hoses 20 on the side. 21 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: The 22 pump? 23 MR. REIMON: The pump, that's 24 it. No rescue ladder. 25 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: The 68 1 rescue couldn't get in there? 2 MR. REIMON: That's it. 3 COMMISSIONER JASEK: I don't 4 want to tell them what they can do, what kind 5 of truck to use, I want a fire official to 6 sign off in the letter that he reviewed it and 7 he is satisfied, and then it satisfies me. 8 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: If you 9 get that letter you will be satisfied? 10 COMMISSIONER JASEK: And the 11 Board will be in agreement on this. 12 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: If we 13 could get a letter from the fire official, Bob 14 Falco, Captain Falco from Hoboken, if you 15 could give him a letter maybe he has to sit 16 down with the chief and the subcode official, 17 fire subcode official, draft the letter and 18 let him explain how the fire department will 19 enter that building. 20 MR. CURLEY: That would be fine. 21 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: And maybe 22 if you can, talk to the City fathers down 23 there and the