1 1 COUNTY OF HUDSON PLANNING BOARD 2 _________________________ 3 : TRANSCRIPT MEETING OF THE COUNTY OF : OF 4 HUDSON PLANNING BOARD : PROCEEDINGS _________________________ 5 6:30 p.m. 6 Wednesday, April 16, 2008 567 Pavonia Avenue 7 Jersey City, New Jersey 8 B E F O R E: 9 JUDE FITZGIBBONS, Chairperson RENEE BETTINGER, Commissioner 10 DANIEL CHOFFO, Commissioner DOREEN DiDOMENICO, Commissioner 11 MICHAEL HOLLOWAY, COMMISSIONER RUSHABH MEHTA, COMMISSIONER 12 JOSE MUNOZ, COMMISSIONER KENNEDY NG, COMMISSIONER 13 14 A L S O P R E S E N T: 15 THOMAS P. CALVANICO, ESQ. Board Attorney 16 STEPHEN MARKS, PP, AICP 17 Planning Director 18 MARIO TRIDENTE, Development and Zoning 19 Compliance Official 20 21 PROUT & CAMMAROTA, L.L.C. 22 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS 147 COLUMBIA TURNPIKE 23 FLORHAM PARK, NJ 07932 TEL: (973) 660-0600 FAX: (973) 660-1966 24 25 2 1 CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER 2 I, CAREY ANN SHAFTAN, a Certified 3 Shorthand Reporter and a Notary Public of the 4 State of New Jersey, do hereby certify that prior 5 to the commencement of the examination, the 6 witness was duly sworn by me. 7 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the following 8 is a true and accurate transcript of the 9 testimony as taken stenographically by me and 10 before me at the date, time and place 11 aforementioned. 12 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither a 13 relative nor employee, nor attorney or counsel to 14 any parties involved; that I am neither related 15 to nor employed by any such attorney or counsel, 16 and that I am not financially interested in the 17 action. 18 19 _________________________________________ 20 A NOTARY PUBLIC OF THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY 21 My Commission Expires 22 May 1, 2011 23 Notary No. 2016121 24 25 3 1 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Good 2 evening. I am about to open and call to order 3 the regular meeting for the Hudson County 4 Planning Board for April 16, 2008. 5 Has this -- Counselor, has this 6 meeting been properly advertised? 7 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: Yes, Mr. 8 Chairman, the meeting has been properly 9 advertised in accordance with the New Jersey 10 Open Public Meetings Act and has been posted 11 and the bulletin board of bothe the County 12 Clerk and the Board of Chosen Freeholders, and 13 published in the Jersey Journal 14 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Mr. 15 Secretary, can I have a roll call. 16 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 17 Arencibia? 18 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Here. 19 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 20 Avagliano? 21 Not here. 22 Commissioner Bettinger? 23 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: Here. 24 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 25 Choffo? 4 1 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Here. 2 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 3 DiDomenico? 4 No response. 5 Commissioner Holloway? 6 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Here. 7 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 8 Mehta? 9 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Here. 10 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 11 Munoz? 12 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Here. 13 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commission Ng? 14 COMMISSIONER NG: Here. 15 DIRECTOR MARKS: Chairman 16 Fitzgibbons? 17 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Present. 18 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 19 we have a quorum. 20 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Will 21 everyone rise to salute the flag. 22 (All rise to salute the Flag.) 23 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: I want to 24 welcome everyone here. 25 Please, when you address the 5 1 podium give your name in full and please, if 2 you can, turn all cell phones off. 3 We have a long agenda tonight 4 and we want to get things going really fast 5 here. 6 Do we have a motion to accept 7 the minutes from the last meeting? 8 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: I will 9 make a motion. 10 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Second. 11 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 12 on a motion to accept the minutes made by 13 Commissioner Choffo and seconded by 14 Commissioner Holloway, Commissioner 15 Arencibia? 16 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Aye. 17 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 18 Bettinger? 19 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: Aye. 20 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 21 Choffo? 22 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Aye. 23 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 24 Holloway? 25 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Aye. 6 1 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 2 Mehta? 3 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Here. 4 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 5 Munoz? 6 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: I abstain. 7 I wasn't present at the last meeting, Mr. 8 Chairman. 9 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 10 Ng? 11 COMMISSIONER NG: Aye. 12 DIRECTOR MARKS: Chairman 13 Fitzgibbons? 14 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Yes. 15 DIRECTOR MARKS: The motion 16 passes. 17 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Do we 18 have anybody from the public that wishes to 19 speak? 20 Seeing none, I move the meeting 21 ahead. 22 Tonight we have an introduction 23 of the Hudson County Planning Board, re-exam 24 report. 25 DIRECTOR MARKS: Yes, sir. We 7 1 have Jeff Perlman from the firm of Hyer, Gruel 2 & Associates. 3 Just for background information, 4 for the last six months the firm of Hyer, 5 Gruel & Associates has been preparing a master 6 plan re-examination report and coming out to 7 the monthly site plan subdivision review 8 committee meetings. 9 It would be basically an update 10 and an addendum to the current 2002 Hudson 11 County Master Plan. 12 Mr. Perlman is here to make his 13 presentation. Distributed this evening is a 14 copy of the report and at the conclusion of 15 Mr. Perlman's presentation, if the Board could 16 introduce it officially then I propose that 17 the county establish a 60 day public comment 18 period. 19 My office will send it out to 20 all the municipalities for public comment to 21 make it available through the internet and 22 have an official copy in our office for public 23 inspection and have a public hearing at our, 24 during our June monthly meeting. 25 Mr. Perlman. 8 1 MR. PERLMAN: As Steven said, my 2 name is Jeff Perlman. I am an associate at 3 the planning firm of Heyer, Gruel & Associates 4 and I think what I did was you should have a 5 copy of a draft form of the re-examination 6 report and it is a draft and we are looking 7 for your comments. 8 We definitely assume there will 9 be some changes and that we would come back 10 with a more lengthy and more detailed 11 presentation of the master plan. 12 We want to get -- sort of 13 highlight you on some of the things that, with 14 the direction of Steve Marks and the site plan 15 and subdivision review subcommittee have been 16 giving us great direction on how to move 17 forward and build upon the good work that was 18 done in the 2002 county master plan. 19 So I have with me this evening a 20 number of maps that I will be referring to 21 briefly as we move through the report. 22 This is just to highlight some 23 of the things that we, some of our findings as 24 we went through the process. 25 Basically we tried to do 9 1 something different, take a different approach 2 in doing a re-examination report because in 3 fact there really isn't any state statutes 4 defining how a county does or goes about doing 5 a re-examination report. 6 Usually that is related to the 7 municipalities and there is a list of state 8 statutes or criteria that a municipality must 9 meet, but in the county you have more of a 10 freedom to really take on more of a holistic 11 approach. 12 So what we tried to do was 13 really step back and take into account all of 14 the great planning work that has been done by 15 the county since 2002. 16 The open space master plans, the 17 economic development strategies that, the SEDS 18 report for 2007, I believe. 19 Some recent planning documents, 20 try to tie those in together particularly as 21 it relates to transit improvements, second 22 circle mobility, a number of these planning 23 documents and try to weave them together, 24 tying them to land use, circulation and 25 particularly as relates to the environment as 10 1 relates to drainage. 2 And climate change actually is 3 something that we really took a look at 4 because, as you may be aware, there have been 5 a number of reports from the international 6 community from scientists talking about the 7 impact of climate change throughout the United 8 States, throughout the world, and also there 9 are some reports focusing on the United States 10 and particularly along the east coast and in 11 the New York Hudson region. 12 So I wanted to highlight for you 13 some of those findings and some of our 14 recommendations how to begin to address that, 15 tying in all of the other elements of planning 16 that a municipality or county or state does. 17 So, without further ado, 18 basically we have the report is broken up into 19 seven or eight chapters. 20 We looked at the goals from 2002 21 and we added a number of goals and objectives 22 in the master plan as it related to drainage, 23 as it relates to storm water management, as it 24 relates to circulation and economic 25 development, and you could see them in the 11 1 report here if you go through them. 2 There are -- there are many, 3 many goals in each different chapter so I am 4 not really going to go through them in detail, 5 but we do have all that in the plans, making 6 circulation, bicycle and pedestrians 7 improvements, improvements to the green 8 infrastructure to form water management, to 9 controlling nonsource pollution of storm water 10 runoff and try to reduce the combined sewer 11 overflows that this county has experienced 12 over the years, to reduce the flooding and 13 potential for flooding in this area. 14 So what I want to do is in terms 15 of focusing on some areas, I want to talk 16 about the conservation or the climate change 17 and a couple of maps here to show you what we 18 are talking about. 19 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: Before you 20 begin, if you are going to be testifying I 21 would like to swear you in for the record. 22 State your name spell your last 23 name. 24 MR. PERLMAN: Jeffrey Perlman, 25 P-E-R-L-M-A-N. 12 1 (Jeffrey Perlman was duly 2 sworn.) 3 MR. PERLMAN: So one of the 4 things we found in terms of looking at some of 5 the goals I mentioned, climate change, 6 improving dealing with climate change and 7 improving drainage and storm water as we 8 looked at the parts of the county. 9 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Can you 10 raise that up on the easel? 11 MR. PERLMAN: I will. Let's go 12 with this first, actually. 13 DIRECTOR MARKS: Could you also 14 identify the maps for the record that you are 15 pointing out to. 16 MR. PERLMAN: Absolutely. 17 So this is an elevations map and 18 it is in the conservation chapter, and if I 19 find it I could tell you exactly what page 20 it's on. Give me a moment. 21 DIRECTOR MARKS: Page 81? 22 MR. PERLMAN: It might be 81. 23 Actually 82. My version is Page 82. 24 And basically this is an 25 elevations map of the county and you can see 13 1 here obviously anything in red is water. 2 Anything in orange is from zero 3 feet to ten feet. And then as you go, darker 4 colors is higher elevation. 5 So Palisades Park and the ridge 6 part of the county is above 40 feet, but you 7 can see that the good part of the county is 8 between 0 feet and ten feet and a number of 9 reports came out from the international panel 10 of claimant change. 11 Members of scientists did an 12 associate risk of climate change on the 13 county, well in the New York region, but 14 included, but being that the county and New 15 York City basically share the Hudson River, 16 any impacts that impact Manhattan are likely 17 to impact Hudson County. 18 So what they talked about was if 19 we don't get climate emissions under control, 20 the areas that are low lying, areas that are 21 currently in a, in a flood hazard area, in a 22 flood plain, the chances of flooding would 23 increase. 24 So those areas that are in the 25 flood plain according to FEMA generally may 14 1 have a one percent chance of flooding or 100 2 year storm event, if you are more familiar 3 with that. 4 That in a high -- if we don't 5 keep emissions under control those kind of 6 storm events might be happening every eleven 7 years. Every eleven years to every 200 years. 8 So those storm events would 9 happen more frequently and those areas that 10 are generally not susceptible to flood would 11 become susceptible to floods because of rising 12 sea levels and so forth. 13 Definitely recommend that the 14 county work with the State and really 15 calculate its Co2 emissions, sort of doing a 16 whole sustainability plan going forward 17 looking at your Co2 emissions of the county 18 going down to a municipal level and where 19 those emissions are. 20 Stationary sources, how much of 21 that is for homes, how much for commercial, 22 how much is related transportation and when 23 you are making your, making plans and 24 improvements to circulation to transit, it 25 will help you to decide where to put comments 15 1 to reduce your Co2 emissions. 2 And also we recommend an area, a 3 mapping of all the energy infrastructure, the 4 power plants sites for renewable energy, sort 5 of getting a chance to see where sites may be 6 available for development and we do know that 7 the Meadowlands are working on that in their 8 district. 9 But we did want to highlight 10 that that particularly is a problem, and I 11 don't want to get anybody upset, but this is a 12 flood hazard map and for illustrative purposes 13 only. 14 So if you are concerned that 15 your home is in a green area, you should be. 16 This is just for illustrative purposes. 17 This is on Page 81 and this 18 talks about those areas that are on the flood 19 hazard map and generally speaking a decent 20 part of the county, that is what is heavily 21 populated, is in the flood hazard map or the 22 area that is susceptible to one percent 23 flooding or the hundred year storm event. 24 And see these areas would be 25 most except susceptible to climate change. If 16 1 the sea levels rose storms became more 2 intense, these areas would have a likelihood 3 of flooding more frequently. 4 And previous storms that 5 happened the last decade or so disrupted 6 transportation into Manhattan, so the towns 7 got flooded and so forth, and so the economic 8 hit for something like that would be, could be 9 potentially be pretty big, so it is, it makes 10 sense from the county to start to look at this 11 issue and address it head on. 12 That is one aspect of the plan. 13 The other major aspect was looking at 14 drainage. 15 Similar, it is related, but it 16 is to talk about how do we address very 17 heavily urbanized area, Hudson County, and how 18 do we bring in, how do we treat storm water. 19 How do we hold it, reduce the runoff into 20 streams, streets, that cause flooding. 21 And what we have recommended is 22 really rethinking how we view storm water 23 management and implementing a number of low 24 impact development techniques and this is the 25 recommendations that would serve to, when the 17 1 county redoes its site plan and subdivision 2 ordinance, that it would make standards and 3 create standards for this. 4 But to, just to relook at how 5 you deal with storm water, using street trees 6 and just as reducing heat factors which is 7 important for street trees to provide 8 amenities for pedestrians and so forth, it 9 actually can be used to actually capture the 10 storm water, hold it, purify it and slow the 11 rate of runoff into the streams and into the 12 storm sewer system. And if you slow that 13 speed, then the number or the events of 14 combined sewer overflows would be reduced. 15 So we looked at how to treat 16 street trees and a tree to could absorb 17 hundreds of gallons of water in a rain event 18 and that alone, if there are enough trees that 19 were planted as part of as developers come in, 20 as applicants come in for development to 21 require that they plant trees along the street 22 and that they are done in a way that is, the 23 tree can stay alive, that it can grow and 24 capture storm water, then you can reduce the 25 potential impacts of rain events and flooding 18 1 and that was another major recommendation that 2 we made. 3 And we also in general looked at 4 how to improve circulation, how to improve 5 mass transit, and the way we looked at that, 6 we said the county is already making major 7 steps to improve mass transit and what we 8 looked at was how to weave together all those 9 improvements dealing with climate change and 10 reviewing the streetscape in terms of street 11 planting and so forth to encourage multi 12 mobile transportation, improve walking and 13 cycling as a means of transportation to get to 14 and from your place of work or shopping and so 15 forth and so we have, made recommendations 16 that the site plan and subdivision ordinance 17 be reviewed that when an applicant comes in, 18 that they not only give you a traffic report 19 as to the level of service for a particular 20 road, but also take into account, well, where 21 -- how many pedestrians might this project 22 generate, how many cyclists might this project 23 generate and provided infrastructure to 24 accommodate that. 25 So that you have -- you would 19 1 encourage more people to walk and to cycle to 2 work. That is another aspect we looked at and 3 made recommendations of the plan. 4 We also looked at and mapped and 5 if I have it here I will show you, means to 6 improve access to recreation and this was, I 7 will show you a map and I will tell you what 8 page it is on. This is the last few matches. 9 This would be if the county 10 implemented all of its -- here is a map and it 11 is on, it is on Page 73. 12 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Page 74. 13 MR. PERLMAN: Basically this is 14 a map of all the proposed, all the existing 15 and proposed parks and trails and a five 16 minute walk to those parks and trails and what 17 you see is the county, if all the proposed 18 parks and trails are implemented, a good 19 amount of the county is, a good amount of the 20 population of the county is within a five 21 minute walk to either a park or a trail and 22 that is really impressive and the county 23 should be proud of its planning in that 24 regard. 25 I want to show once you built 20 1 everything out there will be, except for some 2 small areas, you would have people within five 3 minutes of a park or trail and that tying all 4 these in together is an additional amenity 5 that promotes, improves the quality of life 6 and this is also a place where connecting from 7 one to another through street trees, through 8 reimaging the streets as part of a public 9 space, these trails and these parks could be 10 weaved in together to provide a really 11 unbroken network and that alone would really 12 increase the livability and improve the 13 livability of the county and the people that 14 live within it. 15 We have a number of 16 recommendations in materials of how the county 17 can move about improving the rest of the 18 improvements here and again a lot of what we 19 did in this particular chapter was pulling all 20 the other plans together and putting them 21 together and showing to the county here is 22 what you have been doing over the last six 23 years in trying to fill out your park and 24 trail space, so I think when you see it in 25 this regard it is very impressive. 21 1 I think that is most of my 2 highlight. Questions. 3 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: I want to 4 thank you for your presentation and before we 5 move it we are going to make a motion to 6 present it. 7 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 8 on a motion to introduce it and then to 9 establish a 60 day public comment period 10 followed by a public hearing in June and then 11 we would revisit it based on the comments that 12 we receive and sometime in either July or 13 August I would ask the Board to recommend it 14 to the full Board of Chosen Freeholders. 15 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: I like 16 the idea but it takes a lot of work from all 17 municipalities, the State government plus the 18 Federal government and the Port Authority to 19 make this thing work so it takes all those 20 agencies to work together too, because 21 especially where I come, Hoboken, it is 22 flooded already. 23 You don't need to wait for 100 24 year storm. The downtown is -- 25 MR. PERLMAN: I understand. 22 1 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Actually 2 parts of Jersey City are the same way. But if 3 all the agencies work together in a joint 4 effort, I think it is possible. 5 But if the State or Federal or 6 municipalities in the county don't work 7 together, that is a project for the future and 8 I like the idea, you know? 9 If anybody else has, on the 10 Board wants to say anything. 11 Do we -- can we introduce it? 12 DIRECTOR MARKS: Is there a 13 motion to introduce? 14 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: I will make 15 a motion. 16 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: I will 17 second the motion. 18 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 19 on a motion to introduce the draft master plan 20 re-examination report made by Commissioner 21 Munoz and seconded by Commissioner Bettinger, 22 Commissioner Arencibia? 23 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Aye. 24 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 25 Bettinger? 23 1 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: Aye. 2 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 3 Choffo? 4 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Aye. 5 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 6 DiDomenico? 7 COMMISSIONER DIDOMENICO: Aye. 8 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 9 Holloway? 10 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Aye. 11 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 12 Mehta? 13 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Aye. 14 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 15 Munoz? 16 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Aye. 17 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 18 Ng? 19 COMMISSIONER NG: Aye. 20 DIRECTOR MARKS: Chairman 21 Fitzgibbons? 22 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Aye. 23 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 24 the motion passed. 25 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: 24 1 Resolutions to be approved. 2 DIRECTOR MARKS: 6A on the 3 agenda, memorialization of resolutions 4 approved, conditionally approved or denied at 5 last meeting, beginning with application 6 2007-073-SP, Roadway Express, located at 78 7 Second Street which is Block 295, Lots 8, 9,10 8 and 13 in the Town of Kearny, application 9 2008-003-SP which is Block 114 Development LLC 10 located at 1320-1330 Grand Street which is 11 Block 114 Lots 20 through 25 in the City of 12 Hoboken, and application 2008-024-SD, West 13 Hudson Builders, LLC located at 401 Ogden 14 Avenue which is Block 787, Lot 65 in the City 15 of Jersey City. 16 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Do we 17 have a motion to move? 18 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: I will 19 make a motion. 20 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Do we 21 have a second? 22 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: I will 23 second the motion. 24 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 25 on a motion to approve made by Commissioner 25 1 Choffo and seconded by Commissioner Bettinger, 2 Commissioner Arencibia? 3 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Aye. 4 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 5 Bettinger? 6 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: Aye. 7 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 8 Choffo? 9 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Aye. 10 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 11 DiDomenico? 12 COMMISSIONER DIDOMENICO: Aye. 13 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 14 Holloway? 15 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Aye. 16 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 17 Mehta? 18 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Aye. 19 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 20 Munoz? 21 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Aye. 22 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 23 Ng? 24 COMMISSIONER NG: Aye. 25 DIRECTOR MARKS: Chairman 26 1 Fitzgibbons? 2 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Aye. 3 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 4 the motion passed. 5 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Mr. 6 Secretary, do we have any applications to be 7 declared exempt? 8 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 9 the applications scheduled to be exempt 10 include one application which is 2008-034-SP, 11 New York SMSA Limited located at 630 Bergen 12 Avenue in the City of Jersey City. 13 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: I will 14 make a motion. 15 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: I will 16 second. 17 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 18 on a motion made by Commissioner Bettinger and 19 seconded by Commissioner Mehta, Commissioner 20 Arencibia? 21 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Aye. 22 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 23 Bettinger? 24 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: Aye. 25 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 27 1 Choffo? 2 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Aye. 3 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 4 DiDomenico? 5 COMMISSIONER DIDOMENICO: Aye. 6 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 7 Holloway? 8 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Aye. 9 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 10 Mehta? 11 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Aye. 12 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 13 Munoz? 14 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Aye. 15 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 16 Ng? 17 COMMISSIONER NG: Aye. 18 DIRECTOR MARKS: Chairman 19 Fitzgibbons? 20 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Aye. 21 DIRECTOR MARKS: The motion 22 passed. 23 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Next is 24 site plan subdivision and other matters 25 scheduled for public hearing. 28 1 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Chairman, 2 the first application scheduled for public 3 hearing this evening is application 4 2007-078-SP which is Block 114 Development LLC 5 located on Fourteenth Street which is Block 6 14, Lots 18, 19, and parts of 14 through 17 in 7 the City of Hoboken. 8 MR. CURLEY: John J. Curley, 9 C-U-R-L-E-Y appearing for the applicant, Block 10 114 Development LLC. 11 Mr. Chairman and members of the 12 Board, this is a continuation of a hearing 13 that was started last month. 14 It has to do with the proposed 15 movie theater along Fourteenth Street in 16 Hoboken. 17 At that time there were some 18 concerns expressed by the Board which we have 19 addressed and if I could tell you what those 20 concerns were and how we addressed them. 21 I would summarize it by saying 22 with respect to the canopy we would seek 23 permission at a later date to have that canopy 24 intrude -- I will speak up -- we will seek 25 permission from the county with respect to 29 1 encroachment of any canopy into the right of 2 way of Fourteenth Street which of course is a 3 county roadway. 4 So the canopy would not be part 5 of the design approved by the Board if the 6 Board approves the design this evening. 7 The second one was also with 8 respect to the canopy and that was the limited 9 to a three-foot width. 10 We will deal with that in the 11 context of an application for encroachment 12 into the county right of way. 13 On the design of the 14 intersection and the provision of handicapped 15 parking, the Hoboken Parking Utility has 16 agreed to establish a handicapped space on 17 Adams Street near the corner of Fourteenth and 18 a second handicapped space on Grand Street 19 near the corner of Fourteenth. 20 The curbs are going to be 21 replaced as part of the work and the 22 handicapped access ramps will be installed 23 from the curbs to the streets. 24 We have submitted to the Board a 25 statement from the Hoboken Fire Marshal. The 30 1 City took out the fire apparatus to make sure 2 that it would make the swing around Adams 3 Street on to Fourteenth Street, to make sure 4 that adequate fire protection would be 5 provided to the building. 6 And lastly I have the traffic 7 engineer with me this evening and also the 8 civil engineer. 9 The traffic engineer has at the 10 request of the planning director, submitted a 11 report with respect to ITE requirements on the 12 handicapped parking as they affect movie 13 theaters and with that, Mr. Chairman, if the 14 Board wishes to see a presentation of the 15 turning radius map or any of the other 16 materials, I will ask one of the experts to 17 come and present. 18 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: We did 19 receive the letter from the -- right? We got 20 the letter from the fire marshal? 21 DIRECTOR MARKS: I am in receipt 22 of three letters. A cover letter from Mr. 23 Fred Bado who is director of community 24 development for the City of Hoboken, a signed 25 letter by Robert Falco who is the captain fire 31 1 marshal for the City of Hoboken, and a signed 2 letter by John Corea, C-O-R-E-A, regarding the 3 addition of ADA accessible parking spaces, one 4 on Grand and one on Adams Street. 5 So I will share them with the 6 Board. 7 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: I think 8 we have the copies. It is in our packet. 9 DIRECTOR MARKS: No, it is not. 10 We could have Daniela hand them out. 11 Mr. Chairman, they are in your 12 packets, I am sorry. 13 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Do you 14 have anything to say? 15 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: I think 16 the letter from the fire marshal is based on 17 the current condition of the Fourteenth Street 18 viaduct and we reviewed in the last meeting 19 minutes that was discussed that the Fourteenth 20 Street viaduct is going to be under 21 construction which is the reason why we don't 22 want the canopy until we, until the viaduct is 23 completed and you are going to come back to 24 the county for permission for the canopy. 25 MR. CURLEY: That is correct. 32 1 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: So at 2 that time as well I think the fire code or the 3 fire marshal needs to also evaluate again the 4 safety of the canopy. 5 MR. CURLEY: In order to do that 6 in advance we have had to civil engineer do a 7 turning radius study using the county's plans 8 for the new viaduct and we have submitted that 9 study to the Board. 10 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Okay. 11 Does that account for the canopy 12 in place as well? 13 MR. CURLEY: No, it doesn't 14 address the canopy, it addresses solely 15 turning radius for the fire truck from Adams 16 Street onto Fourteenth. But it assumes the 17 replacement of the viaduct with the new 18 design. 19 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: That is 20 fine. But in the future when you come back 21 for the canopy, I think we would also like the 22 fire marshal to look at that again because his 23 letter is based on the current condition of 24 the Fourteenth Street viaduct. 25 MR. CURLEY: That is correct. 33 1 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Other 2 things that I want to make sure don't 3 interfere with the construction of the 4 viaduct, is the trees. 5 And I know you are proposing 6 trees and I am recommending that they be 7 placed in planters that so that they could be 8 moved, maybe concrete planters because at some 9 point those trees, if you place them in there, 10 they are going to be moved during any 11 construction. 12 MR. CURLEY: We will do whatever 13 the county requires on the county roadside. 14 Hoboken is requiring other 15 things on Adams and Grand, but certainly other 16 than the county side, whatever the county 17 directs us to do. 18 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: I am 19 recommending you put them in. And planters 20 that they could be moved with a backhoe if 21 need be. 22 And you mentioned before, I had 23 to step out for a minute, but you were going 24 to prepare plans showing the crosswalks be 25 painted and signs as well? 34 1 MR. CURLEY: That plan has been 2 submitted as well. 3 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: It was 4 submitted? 5 MR. CURLEY: It is on the site 6 plan. 7 MR. MISSEY: My name is Andrew 8 Missey. I was here before you at the last 9 hearing. 10 I am from Lapatka Associates and 11 in response to the questions from -- 12 MR. CURLEY: You should be 13 sworn. 14 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Were you 15 sworn in before us? 16 MR. MISSEY: Yes. 17 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: He should 18 be sworn for this hearing. 19 State your name, spell your last 20 name. 21 MR. MISSEY: Andrew H. Missey, 22 M-I-S-S-E-Y. 23 (Andrew Missey was duly sworn.) 24 MR. MISSEY: Again, continuing 25 from last month, we have in response to the 35 1 questions regarding the crosswalk painting, 2 prepared a drawing entitled Exhibit -- 3 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Can you 4 mark that? 5 MR. MISSEY: I will mark it A-2. 6 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Yes. 7 MR. MISSEY: With this month's 8 date. 9 (Exhibit so marked.) 10 MR. MISSEY: Referring 11 to the exhibit marked A-2, intersects pavement 12 striping and fire apparatus turning movements, 13 Block 114 turning 409-415 Fourteenth Street 14 prepared by Lapatka Associates, one sheet with 15 the date of March 31st of this year. 16 The topmost portion of the plan 17 illustrates on the left side of this drawing 18 the ADA accessible parking space that will be 19 painted on the Adams Street and Fourteenth on 20 the Adams Street right of way within the 21 roadway as well as two crosswalks, one 22 crosswalk in the painted crosswalk stretching 23 in the westerly direction which will go from 24 the cinema site over to the retail site which 25 is presently under construction and a second 36 1 crosswalk extending from the corner of the 2 cinema to the north to the opposite side or on 3 the other side underneath the viaduct. 4 This drawing makes mention that 5 this crosswalk striping will be coordinated 6 with the terminus of the county's viaduct 7 plans once those plans are issued. 8 In the same manner, on the same 9 side of the upper right of the sheet we have 10 identified the Grand Street at Fourteenth 11 Street intersection which has a very similar 12 street. 13 ADA parking space alongside the 14 curb immediately adjoining the cinema site, 15 the crosswalk to the east to connect to the 16 sidewalks on the opposite side where Metro 17 Homes has its office building and the 18 crosswalk to the north again under the viaduct 19 with the same note that the terminus of that 20 crosswalk striping will be coordinated with 21 the county's plans. 22 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Mr. 23 Chairman? 24 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: How many 37 1 parking spaces did you say they are going to 2 have in there, 80? 3 MR. MISSEY: There will be two 4 ADA accessible. Americans with Disability 5 Act. 6 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: How many 7 parking spaces total? 8 MR. MISSEY: Two. 9 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: That's it? 10 Trying to fit 985 people in the building and 11 only two accessible parking spaces? 12 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: 13 Handicapped. Once again I think -- 14 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: There is no 15 plan to build a parking space? 16 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: No. 17 Commissioner, this is what happened in the 18 last meeting. You weren't here. 19 There was a big thing to do with 20 it. As you seen before this plan that we were 21 just going to adopt, Hoboken has a walking 22 community. 23 Hoboken does not want to have, 24 be between the Lincoln and Holland Tunnel. 25 The carbon monoxide there, the air quality. 38 1 Hoboken is a walking community. 2 Already are there parking 3 facilities, paved parking facilities? I 4 believe near the place, but -- right? There 5 is public parking? 6 MR. CURLEY: Within a block and 7 a half. 8 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: A block 9 and a half. That was the sticking point of 10 the whole thing that we made, there was a few 11 things we discussed. 12 It is a walking community and 13 actually that is part of the redevelopment 14 plan that the City of Hoboken, part of their 15 redevelopment plan in the master plan and most 16 of it, Hoboken hasn't had enough parking 17 facilities as it is, so they would rather have 18 people from the communities walk to there. 19 I think that's the whole idea. 20 I believe that was the whole idea on that 21 concept. 22 MR. CURLEY: Yes. The 23 redevelopment plan in -- the northwest 24 redevelopment plan was amended by the City 25 Council to permit a movie theater of this type 39 1 without providing off street parking. 2 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: Mr. 3 Chairman, is there any way that you could 4 revise the plan putting some parking 5 underneath? 6 MR. CURLEY: Hoboken doesn't 7 want any parking at that location. 8 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Mr. 9 Chairman? 10 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: They 12 said they wanted no parking. 13 MR. CURLEY: That's correct. 14 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Mr. 15 Chairman, has there been any study done on the 16 condition the congestion is going to create on 17 the county road? 18 MR. CURLEY: I have the parking 19 engineer who can explain what parking 20 facilities are available nearby and how they 21 would accommodate any parking that would be 22 required. 23 Bearing in mind that this is 24 intended to be more of a neighborhood facility 25 than some type of regional theater. 40 1 This is not like the theater in 2 Edgewater that has a large surface parking 3 lot. This is a theater with multiple screens 4 with approximately 900to 950 person full 5 capacity and it is located in a very densely 6 populated neighborhood. 7 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Mr. 8 Chairman, I think if the facility is trying to 9 bring 985 people into a building, they are 10 going to create a lot of congestion. 11 Say they put a movie in a hit 12 and a lot of people are going to want to see 13 that movie. 14 They are going to create a 15 tremendous condition on the county road and 16 not only that, around the area there are 17 residents buildings, right? Residential 18 buildings. 19 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Actually 20 the area is being redeveloped. It is going to 21 have many, many multiple dwelling units in 22 that area. 23 It is going to be -- actually 24 there should be at least maybe I figure, I am 25 just taking the figure off the top of my head, 41 1 I figure another, close to another five, six 2 hundred dwelling units in the area. 3 I will tell you, it is going to 4 be developed, that whole area going to be 5 developed. Parks down there and everything. 6 That is part of a plan to put a 7 theater there, some parks. I think the county 8 is going to do a little bit under the viaduct, 9 a little bit of walking area. 10 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: I have one 11 question for Mr. Curley. 12 This has been approved by 13 Hoboken? Just refresh my memory. 14 MR. CURLEY: Yes. Approved by 15 the Hoboken Planning Board and approved by the 16 Hoboken City Council as part of an amendment 17 to the redevelopment plan. 18 I would point out it is also 19 consistent with the county's projected 20 possible closure of sections of Fourteenth 21 Street coming west from Willow in which there 22 is an intention by the county expressed to 23 create a walking environment rather than have 24 motor vehicles in that location. 25 I believe the county engineer is 42 1 aware of that. 2 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Yes. 3 That part of the Fourteenth 4 Street viaduct project that we are working on 5 is looking to improve the street level on the 6 viaduct and to make it into a pedestrian 7 friendly mall area. 8 So it could mean closing off 9 Marginal Road at least but still allow through 10 street traffic from the side streets. 11 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: But not 12 going through? 13 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Not 14 along Marginal Road, but that is something we 15 are going to be discussing with the City in a 16 couple of weeks. 17 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: I would 18 like to ask the engineer how are they going to 19 prevent -- they are talking about making a 20 walking, a walking area, but how are they 21 going to prevent cars coming in, people from 22 all the towns coming into the theater? 23 I mean that's not creating 24 congestion in the area with parking space, 25 that's creating congestion in the area with 43 1 traffic. 2 Is that county road prepared for 3 the traffic that this type of facility is 4 going to bring into this area? 5 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: I think 6 from the last meeting there was -- I wasn't 7 present at the last meeting, but I reviewed 8 the minutes from the last meeting. 9 The traffic engineer gave some 10 testimony that the patrons of the theater 11 would be using a nearby parking garage if they 12 are going which was about two or three blocks 13 away on Fourteenth Street, and other parking 14 facilities nearby. 15 But I think they are stressing 16 that Hoboken is a pedestrian city, that most 17 of the people are going to be people walking. 18 It is really serving the people of Hoboken, 19 and that the other communities already have 20 theaters. 21 So in reading the testimony from 22 the last meeting about the traffic, definitely 23 there will be cars dropping off people or that 24 are from the other end of town, but the 25 traffic engineer already provided his 44 1 testimony. 2 There isn't a breakdown of 3 traffic that is going to occur. 4 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: Mr. 5 Chairman? 6 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: 7 Commissioner Choffo. 8 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: The whole 9 thing is there are theaters that have the huge 10 parking facilities in Edgewater and around us 11 maybe only 10, 15 minutes away probably 12 showing the same movies. 13 They don't want -- actually 14 Hoboken is a one square mile very congested 15 and, you know, in that area is going to be 16 developed but also it takes waterfront that 17 was redeveloped years ago. Thousands of units 18 up there. 19 Maxwell House and Lipton Tea and 20 all that area is within walking distance. 21 That is what I see as -- I see what is going 22 on there. 23 The way they redevelop, they 24 want people to walk. And Hoboken is a walking 25 community. Because you can't park. You can't 45 1 park anywhere. I don't care if you have 100 2 parking spots in there, you are still not 3 going to have enough parking in Hoboken. 4 There is zoned parking. You got 5 to be a resident to park in Hoboken. If you 6 are not a paying resident and don't have a 7 resident permit, they will boot you. 8 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: 9 Ultimately if the theater becomes difficult to 10 park you are not going to get customers. 11 If you can't get parking you are 12 not going to want to go there. 13 But I think most of the people 14 will be coming from the City itself, the City 15 of Hoboken, that will be using the theater. 16 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: It is a 17 five screen theater? Five, right? 18 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: But 985 20 people, if it was a smaller facility that 21 would be fine, but you are trying to create a 22 facility that would fit a lot of people. 23 People are going to come with 24 cars and create a traffic problem on the 25 county road. 46 1 Chairman, I ask the county road 2 now has a traffic congestion problem or no? 3 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: In the 4 immediate area of this theater, no. There is 5 very little traffic. The streets are really 6 very little traffic. 7 But if you go to Willow Avenue 8 and Fourteenth Street, there is congestion 9 there during the peak hours. 10 The theater would be operating 11 mostly in the evening or weekends when the 12 traffic is lighter on our county roads. 13 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Have they 14 considered to make a smaller theater in this 15 area maybe to fit less amount of people? 16 MR. CURLEY: The location of 17 this county road is really just Marginal Road 18 below the viaduct. It is only a county road 19 because you have the viaduct carrying all the 20 traffic up above. The surface on Fourteenth 21 Street is hardly ever used. 22 As a matter of fact, I would 23 think that as a result of this project and 24 other projects, that surface will be smoothed 25 out. 47 1 At this point I wouldn't want to 2 drive any car down that road in its current 3 condition. 4 It bears only minimal traffic 5 today. 6 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: It is 7 actually, the property down there is all 8 industrial. There is no -- that is what the 9 development area is, all the industrial. The 10 whole site, they are going to develop down 11 there and Fourteenth Street, like he said, you 12 can't drive down that. It is all -- he can 13 tell you. 14 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Well, 15 in the area in front of the theater it is 16 actually one of the better spots, Marginal 17 Road. 18 If you go further west of there 19 it is really almost impossible. It is 20 something that the county will address in its 21 Fourteenth Street viaduct project. 22 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Also it 23 is not far from the Light Rail. There is a 24 Light Rail stop right on 9th Street and an 25 elevator that comes from Congress Street, 48 1 comes down to 9th so people actually in Union 2 City and Jersey City in the Heights can take 3 the elevator down, walk to the theater and go 4 see the movie. 5 Am I right? 6 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: It is 7 very close, the 9th Street Station. 8 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Mr. 9 Chairman? 10 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Fourteenth 12 Street, is it a one-way or two-way traffic and 13 how big is the 4th Street? 14 MR. CURLEY: One way on one side 15 of the viaduct and one way on the opposite 16 side of the viaduct, I believe. 17 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Actually, 18 if you think of 4th Street as you think of 19 Fourteenth Street, the extension that we are 20 looking at is all cobblestone, part pavement, 21 part dirt. It is hardly ever used. 22 The only time I use it is when 23 there is a lot of traffic and it is like a 24 roller coaster going over the bumps trying to 25 get through the city. 49 1 But it is an all industrial 2 area. That is why it is being redeveloped. 3 Am I right? 4 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Yeah. 5 If we can go back to the last 6 meeting, in reviewing the minutes I think Mr. 7 Jasek at the time and I think the whole Board 8 summarized the characteristics of this 9 neighborhood and there were five issues that 10 need to be addressed. I am going to recite 11 them. 12 Issue No. 1 would be no canopy 13 be constructed until the construction of the 14 viaduct is completed. 15 Number 2 was the maximum 16 intrusion of the new canopy after the 17 construction should be no more than three feet 18 into the Hudson County right of way. 19 And number three would be the 20 condition of providing a detailed design of 21 the intersection of Marginal Road and Grand 22 Avenue and Adams Avenue to indicate the 23 crosswalks, stop signs, proper intersection 24 for the pedestrians. 25 Number four would be the fire 50 1 marshal approval. 2 And number five would be to 3 recommend the municipality provide several 4 handicapped spots on the side streets on Adams 5 and Grand. 6 So I think you have already 7 indicated that you are not going to construct 8 a canopy, you will come back for that when you 9 are ready. 10 MR. CURLEY: Yes, we would need 11 a franchise from the county to built that. 12 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: I was just 13 trying to understand the traffic pattern, 14 whether this is one way traffic or whether it 15 says -- I see on the picture there is, on the 16 side there is a couple of cars parked. 17 If you did that already, street 18 parking is available on the street and when 19 they are saying there will be drop off area, 20 how big is the drop off area and how many cars 21 will be staying in that area to drop off the 22 people? 23 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Can I see 24 that picture? 25 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: I 51 1 believe at the last meeting, I wasn't present, 2 but in reading the minutes that was discussed 3 that the drop-off area would -- was 4 recommended and I think it was agreed not to 5 provide a pull-out for that. 6 MR. CURLEY: I think it was 7 indicated it would be better not to have a 8 drop-off area off street. 9 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Off 10 Marginal Road because there was really no room 11 for it. 12 MR. CURLEY: Really no room. 13 MR. MUNOZ: The county road is 14 three on the picture, the one that is in bad 15 condition now? 16 MR. TRIDENTE: That is it. 17 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: So the 18 county would have to spend money on fixing the 19 road? 20 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: We will 21 be upgrading the street level underneath the 22 viaduct as part of the project. 23 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: I think 24 it needs a little bit of upgrading. 25 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: We are 52 1 looking to do a significant upgrade. 2 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Actually 3 I think the municipality or the county really 4 didn't want anybody to use that road. 5 Am I right? 6 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Part of 7 the improvements will involve streetscape. 8 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: At the 9 last meeting, I want to state for the record, 10 I believe Mr. Curley and his client came 11 through with all the five issues that we 12 discussed at the last meeting. 13 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER CHOFFO: So without 15 rehashing the same details since we have an 16 agenda, unless any other Commissioners have 17 questions. 18 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Mr. 19 Chairman, I just wanted, because this is the 20 first time I am seeing this traffic plan, I do 21 have some comments on it but they are minor so 22 just a conditional approval of this site plan 23 but I need to take a closer look at it and 24 provide you with the comments. 25 MR. CURLEY: Very good. 53 1 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: Since the 2 diagram is here and it was initialed here 3 about the traffic and turning radius, if Mr. 4 Missey would go through the two other diagrams 5 that he posted there just to indicate what the 6 turning radiuses were. 7 MR. CURLEY: Mr. Missey, if you 8 could. 9 MR. MISSEY: I will now speak to 10 the turning movement diagrams that are on A-2. 11 To the lower left of the sheet 12 is a diagram indicating how the Hoboken, the 13 Hoboken ladder truck would access Fourteenth 14 Street in a northbound manner coming along 15 Adams Street. 16 What we have done is onto the 17 drawing that is before you we have shown the 18 ladder truck's movement onto this site and we 19 have done that by communicating with Captain 20 Falco of the Hoboken Fire Department and 21 selecting the turning, the turning template 22 that most appropriately approximates that 23 vehicle's size. 24 The vehicle size that Hoboken 25 has is approximately 47 feet in length. It is 54 1 a nine and a half foot wide fire truck. It -- 2 actually it is a little narrower than that and 3 the wheel base is 258 inches, probably a 4 little less actually because Hoboken has 5 equipment for an urban environment. 6 In any case, this diagram at the 7 lower left of the drawing clearly shows that 8 with the curb lines in their present 9 configuration, the truck can make the movement 10 northward on Adams Street and clearly make the 11 turn onto the eastbound Marginal Road in the 12 present configuration. 13 Similarly on the right side of 14 the drawing we have the fire apparatus turning 15 movements from Grand Street in a southbound 16 direction because that is the direction of 17 Grand Street in Hoboken onto Fourteenth Street 18 to the west. 19 Also we have included on this 20 the movement from the westbound viaduct street 21 or the Marginal Road onto Grand Street in the 22 southerly direction. 23 So this diagram or this part of 24 the exhibit illustrates that the, the turning, 25 there is ample room within the curb lines as 55 1 they sit right now to accommodate Hoboken's 2 apparatus which is what Captain Falco 3 performed in the field and certified to in his 4 letter to the Board. 5 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: Mr. 6 Chairman, if I might? 7 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Yes. 8 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: This 9 doesn't reflect the new configuration of the 10 Fourteenth Street viaduct, correct? 11 MR. MISSEY: At this point we 12 just don't know what the new configuration 13 will be. 14 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: I wanted to 15 make that clear. Maybe I misheard it earlier, 16 but I thought Mr. Curley indicated that the 17 plan was done in accordance with the county's 18 proposed plan with the viaduct. It is not. 19 What they are saying, the fire 20 chief is saying the truck can make the turn 21 now. 22 MR. CURLEY: What I meant 23 before, and you can ask Mr. Missey, it took 24 into consideration the upper level of the 25 viaduct because we don't have a drawing of 56 1 that. 2 We don't have a drawing of what 3 the county will do on the street level. 4 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Widen the 5 viaduct underneath or be almost the same. 6 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: The 7 viaduct is going to get widened on the bridge 8 itself. Underneath the piers will be roughly 9 the same width as they are right now. 10 Right now they are very wide but 11 it might be narrower than what it is. We are 12 going to maintain the marginal roads. 13 As far as the width of the 14 marginal roads, what they are going to be, 15 that hasn't been designed yet but I would 16 still think that fire trucks could still get 17 through. 18 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Thank you. 19 One question. 20 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Go ahead. 21 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: On the 22 pictures there is a light here or a stop sign. 23 Stop sign. 24 What is the main streets? 25 MR. CURLEY: There are no lights 57 1 in that neighborhood at this point. 2 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: What is the 3 main street here? 4 MR. CURLEY: There is no main 5 street in that neighborhood. Willow Avenue is 6 the closest main street. 7 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: My opinion, 8 I would not vote for this unless there is a 9 traffic study. 10 There is no traffic lights 11 around here which means they are going to have 12 to install traffic lights. 13 How much traffic is this going 14 to create? 15 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: You don't 16 understand where it is. It is going to be a 17 residential area down there. A residential 18 and recreational area. 19 I don't think right now you -- I 20 don't think there will be traffic lights. 21 COMMISSIONER NG: Mr. Chairman, 22 when people ready to get into the theater it 23 will be a lot of traffic. It will be. 24 I mean in Union City we have a 25 couple of theaters without parking in the 58 1 past. We had one on Bergenline and it was 2 chaos. 3 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: When that 4 happens if the municipality -- first of all it 5 is not a county road. 6 COMMISSIONER NG: But if we can 7 prevent that. What you are doing before it 8 happens. 9 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: That 10 would have to be, if it is on a county road 11 the light, I don't know how you could put a 12 light where the viaduct is. 13 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Mr. 14 Chairman, does the applicant have his traffic 15 engineer present? 16 MR. CURLEY: Yes, I do. 17 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Maybe 18 he should provide some testimony. 19 ATTORNEY CALVANICO: State your 20 name spell your last name. 21 MR. PAVLOVICH: John Pavlovich, 22 P-A-V-L-O-I-C-H. 23 (John Pavlovich was duly sworn.) 24 MR. CURLEY: Mr. Pavlovich, can 25 you review some of your testimony from the 59 1 last hearing concerning how the traffic would 2 work in relation to this proposed theater and 3 how off-street parking is to be accommodated 4 for the theater. 5 MR. PAVLOVICH: As a precursor 6 to that, the area does not -- the cinema does 7 not require off-street parking. 8 The typical of most urban areas 9 there is a central parking source to satisfy 10 retail needs. 11 That is consistent with what the 12 City of Hoboken has proposed in their 13 redevelopment plan for accommodating parking 14 for people that visit the cinema or daycare, 15 or attend any of their patron activities at 16 any of the retail establishments. 17 With that being said, there is 18 no parking for the cinema. However, there is 19 parking, as counsel has said, and also 20 previously stated in the record, there are two 21 large parking facilities two to three blocks 22 east of the site of the cinema and that is 23 where the people would be parking. 24 In most areas if you go into 25 Hoboken in particular you are not going to 60 1 find people looking to get a parking spot 2 either because of resident permits or other 3 requirements, but they are not going to find a 4 parking space. They are going to go where 5 they can get the parking, the off-street 6 parking located on Fourteenth Street and 4th 7 Street. 8 In terms of the existing traffic 9 on the streets right now, Adams Street has 10 maybe 80 to 90 vehicles heading northbound in 11 the morning and southbound on Grand you get, 12 you will get numbers similar to maybe 150 to 13 175. 14 With all the new development, 15 you are having traffic adding maybe 50 to 75 16 vehicles in each direction during the peak 17 hours. 18 So each of those streets would 19 have roughly 200 do 250 vehicles northbound, 20 or p.m., or during the a.m. or p.m. peak 21 hours. 22 DIRECTOR MARKS: For the record, 23 can Mr. Pavlovich identify how many parking 24 spaces are available in each of the two 25 structures he just mentioned. 61 1 MR. PAVLOVICH: I don't have 2 those numbers with me. 3 MR. CURLEY: One is the parking 4 garage which is on Park Avenue, I believe. 5 MR. PAVLOVICH: Correct. 6 MR. CURLEY: How many stories, 7 approximately. 8 MR. PAVLOVICH: Seven. 9 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Seven 10 stories? 11 MR. CURLEY: And the other is 12 the BDLJ parking lot. What is that, eight 13 stories? 14 MR. PAVLOVICH: Somewhere 15 between six and eight, I haven't gone all the 16 way up to the top. 17 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Mr. 18 Chairman, you mentioned that most of the 19 patrons that will come to the surrounding 20 neighborhood is going to park in the parking 21 lot and they are going to come and visit and 22 park. 23 In that, just two quick 24 questions. You are mentioning about the 25 drop-off area. 62 1 How big is the drop-off areas 2 and how many cars at a time can drop off the 3 patrons. 4 MR. PAVLOVICH: Before I answer 5 that, this is supposed to be marketed as a 6 neighborhood theater. 7 Hoboken prides itself in being a 8 walkable -- it is an urban village with a 9 walkable environment. 10 The idea is not to have people 11 coming to the theater with an automobile. It 12 doesn't preclude coming by automobile, but I 13 would liken it to people trying to go to a 14 theater in Manhattan where there is no 15 parking. 16 If there isn't parking 17 available, people are going to come by transit 18 or walk or park in the garages that are 19 located over on Park Avenue. 20 That is my understanding. 21 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: I 22 understand your argument. At the same time 23 Commissioner Ng said in Union City the parking 24 where the theater is on Smith Avenue and when 25 popular movie is showing at that time most of 63 1 the people have double parked on the street 2 and they drop off the people and create a 3 little bit traffic problem, congestion, so 4 that's why I am asking when you are trying to 5 create the drop-off area, how big is the 6 drop-off area and how many cars at a time can 7 drop off the people. 8 My question is only that. 9 MR. CURLEY: Mr. Commissioner, 10 at the last meeting we had this discussion 11 about drop-off areas and we don't want a 12 drop-off area because to have a drop-off area 13 would be an invitation for automotive use. 14 We don't want cars coming to the 15 theater if we can avoid it. 16 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: I got to 17 ask Mr. Arencibia. 18 Can you -- actually on those 19 streets you cannot stand in those streets that 20 are there now. 21 If you park a car you ain't 22 getting past. If somebody would put a vehicle 23 in that street and just let it stay there for 24 20, 30 minutes or an hour you are not moving. 25 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: The 64 1 streets are narrow. 2 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: The 3 streets are narrow. It is not made for 4 drop-off. 5 Right now I cannot -- if there 6 was an industry, industrial site there right 7 on that, you cannot park on that. The only 8 way you could park is on the sidewalk. 9 It is very narrow. You could 10 understand the situation. Here is the 11 viaduct. One side is like this and the other 12 side is like that (indicating). 13 That is because Hoboken wanted 14 it there to there and because of the 15 redevelopment plan. You can't stand there 16 now. 17 No standing signs are going to 18 be there anyway. I believe that's what is 19 going to happen. 20 I believe when it is 21 redevelopment in that area there and when the 22 county redevelops their plan for the viaduct 23 there is going to be no standing. 24 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: There 25 is no parking or stopping or standing allowed 65 1 right now along the Fourteenth Street marginal 2 streets. 3 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Mr. 4 Chairman. 5 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: 6 Commissioner Munoz. 7 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: This is New 8 Jersey Transit over here, right? 9 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: No. That 10 is not New Jersey Transit. That is -- what is 11 that -- is that New Jersey Transit? That is a 12 private company, isn't it? 13 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Which 14 photo? 15 MR. CURLEY: The bus. 16 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: The bus 17 lot. 18 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: 19 Commissioner DiDomenico? 20 MR. CURLEY: Academy. 21 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: When the 22 buses go out what way they go? 23 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: They go 24 out towards 16th Street. 25 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: They 66 1 don't drop on Fourteenth Street. 2 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: So they go 3 this way (indicating). 4 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: They go 5 out towards -- what they do is go out towards 6 16th Street and go over to the Lincoln tunnel. 7 That is all New York buses. Commuter buses 8 for New York. 9 Am I right? 10 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: They 11 have another entrance, I think it is on 15th. 12 But I know they have a driveway off of 13 Fourteenth Street. 14 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: That is 15 not used. 16 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: With 17 that being said, you are stating the streets 18 are so narrow, I have a problem with safety or 19 the patrons of the theater and for the fire 20 department to get down there after the 21 construction of the viaduct. There are 985 22 seats in this theater. 23 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: I don't 24 think, personally I don't think you are going 25 to fill 980 people there. 67 1 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: Then 2 you should make a smaller theater. 3 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: We cannot 4 ask them to build a smaller theater. You 5 can't tell the people developing the area. 6 You cannot dictate to them what 7 they want to develop. The turnpike approved 8 this and that is why we are here, just to see 9 that first of all the county roads are not 10 infringed upon. 11 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Mr. 12 Chairman? 13 COMMISSIONER BETTINGER: But we 14 are not going to rubber stamp something we 15 feel is wrong or else why appear before us. 16 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Is the 17 county viaduct -- we have to think what this 18 construction is going to have on the county 19 road. 20 This is going to create traffic. 21 There is no question about it. It is going to 22 create safety issue and impacting county road. 23 We are not talking about city, 24 it is impacting county road. Unless they 25 provide a smaller facility or provide space it 68 1 is going to impact county road. 2 If they don't want -- it is bad 3 planning to put this type of facility on this 4 place. You are trying to squeeze 985 theater 5 into an area that -- look the amount of 6 residential it is created in there. 7 CHAIRMAN FITZGIBBONS: Can I say 8 something? There is a lot of negatives here, 9 but if you read the plan we just approved, we 10 introduced, rather. 11 This is what the future is. 12 They don't want people to use their vehicles. 13 They want people to walk to where they want 14 entertainment where they want to dine that is 15 the future it is going to grow. 16 My personal opinion, you live in 17 a community, it is going to affect you sooner 18 or later. It is going to expand. It is going 19 to change, your community is going to chan